General Discussion

General DiscussionPlaying support

Playing support in General Discussion
Sayzee

    I did you read my post properly?

    Thanks.

    King of Low Prio

      @Mark

      you walking mid and getting yourself killed is your own fault(improve your communication skills). Going at the right time is more of a advanced tactic I agree, attempting to smoke gank is basic stuff the fact that you dont do it shows you are a awful support player in pubs sadly :(

      King of Low Prio

        @Yoshi

        your passive aggressive tone is no different than me being blunt with people so get off your high horse

        Dire Wolf

          That's where you're wrong, smoke ganks are not standard pub tactics or they would happen more. It's near impossible to pull off a non team wide smoke gank in a pub. I can ping, yell in chat I'm coming to smoke gank mid and my positioning will be fine and our mid still fucks it up. Or say to our other support let's go smoke gank while we're out of lane, pop smoke, he goes and hits something by accident to break it. Most people don't even smoke into rosh. I just can't agree with you on that one. I agree people ward in retarded spots, I'll agree with a lot of other stuff but not the smokes.

          frostychee

            Do you get confirmation from your teammate that they see you/are ready for the gank? I always make sure they confirm if they are ready or if a mid comes to a sidelane with a rune I always voice chat "I see you coming".

            Just ask them if they are ready. Assume they have no map sense.

            King of Low Prio

              communication is a 2way street, you saying 'I AM GOING MID' to a pub player who is not reading chat log or saying it over voice to someone listening to music is why you probably fail at doing your job of smoke ganking correctly. I have played with some people with below 1500 MM and the MM spread in the matches we got where huge and I have never gotten a person who when me or one of my friends said 'we are smoking coming mid are you ready?' and they confirmed it (this is the key to communication speaking AND listening) did they not at least TRY to secure a kill. Nobody said that every single smoke gank has to secure a kill BUT the act of trying to do it was what the list entailed.

              King of Low Prio

                bleh frosty beat me to it -_-

                frostychee

                  Sampson

                  I usually agree what what you usually say, but just to flip the script, this is what expect of carries. I know this doesn't directly apply to mid/opposite lane, but do you think this is fair to expect from farmers/carries?

                  -Last hit when untouched
                  -Win lane when given advantage after support leaves
                  -Not die when given proper vision
                  -Not die when lane is a disadvantage (2v1)
                  -Join winnable fights with a somewhat early tp
                  -Avoid losing fights and stay and farm
                  -Push lane when 5 enemies on otherside of map
                  -Join team when applicable and not afk farm

                  Bonus:
                  Getting kills without any support setup/help
                  Getting cs/exp in unfavorable lanes
                  Pushing towers under pressure

                  artemis

                    What about target prioritizing?

                    Do any of you ever notice this being a problem with both supports and carries, and how do you correct it (obviously in yourself through practice, but in others just beg them to attack a first, then b, then c, d, or e?)

                    Like stunning/attacking the support who used his nukes already, or stunning/attacking the blink char with no followup stun available instead of stunning/attacking someone who can't escape, or any number of similar situations.

                    This comment was edited
                    King of Low Prio

                      '-Not die when given proper vision'

                      If you mean not dieing to a gank that walks through ward vision, yes. If you mean not dieing to a batrider who just got his blink dagger with a naix inside him behind your tier 2 sometimes that is completely hard to predict.

                      '-Join winnable fights with a somewhat early tp
                      -Avoid losing fights and stay and farm'

                      these are somewhat advanced tactics to learn and even professionals have trouble with it

                      but yes the rest of the list is pretty basic

                      frostychee

                        "If you mean not dieing to a gank that walks through ward vision, yes. If you mean not dieing to a batrider who just got his blink dagger with a naix inside him behind your tier 2 sometimes that is completely hard to predict."

                        Yeah, but at at that point it's mid game, and you would hope your team would be doing something productive if they other team used their bat and lifestealer.

                        "these are somewhat advanced tactics to learn and even professionals have trouble with it"

                        Obviously, but what is worse than a carry who stops freefarm to join a 2v5 or a carry who doesn't join a fight on top of their tower when all of the other team is at 100 hp. I know it's hard and its a situation everyone faces, but people have to use their best judgements. This was more geared to the extremes.

                        "but yes the rest of the list is pretty basic"

                        Yeah, I was trying to emulate an equivalent list to the previous support lists. Pretty much everything works hand in hand as this game is.

                        King of Low Prio

                          with the naix bomb I have seen some batriders get some insanely fast blink daggers

                          Dire Wolf

                            "-Join winnable fights with a somewhat early tp
                            -Avoid losing fights and stay and farm"

                            That is really hard to gauge. Hindsight you get people saying all the time if you had tp'd bottom we'd have saved the tower and won the fight but it's often debatable. If a carry is unsure they should almost always keep farming and the players at said tower should bail if they can.

                            frostychee

                              "That is really hard to gauge. Hindsight you get people saying all the time if you had tp'd bottom we'd have saved the tower and won the fight but it's often debatable. If a carry is unsure they should almost always keep farming and the players at said tower should bail if they can."

                              This was more geared to the extremes.

                              casual gamer

                                At 3.8K people smoke regularly

                                Gustaphos

                                  How was my support dazzle last friday sampson?

                                  King of Low Prio

                                    um I cant remember much of it but I will give you what I remember

                                    -buy sentries as a starting item for the safe lane when they pick a BH 99 out of 100 games he will be in the offlane
                                    -careful on your heals they stole a couple last hits and pushed the creep wave

                                    I am sure there where more stuff but I have horrible memory

                                    King of Low Prio

                                      but overall it wasnt that bad dazzle is one of your better heroes from what I have seen

                                      Gustaphos

                                        mmmkay. So probably hold on to 200 GP if I dunno where the invis hero is laning I suppose? Just in case? I would hate to get them off the start if they aren't going to be in my lane early game.

                                        King of Low Prio

                                          you can never go wrong when you bring sentries to the safe lane, you either have them for invis heroes or you have them to deward pull camp/jungle vision.

                                          Gustaphos

                                            K. another reason i hate buying them off the bat is I tend to buy soul ring recipe , then sages mask, and either courier or obs wards. I hate waiting for the courier to bring the recipe to me when other lanes are using it. That provides I just buy a ring of health side shop instead and can usually scoop it up in 2:00 MIN.

                                            I suppose if we play more, I can do the recipe, sentries, 2 clarities to hold me over, and a courier. Its just tough playing solo support and figuring what would help out more. I had been playing max healing wave since I started, but since you suggested 1 pt shadow wave then max po. touch or shallow grave then max healing wave last, I might not need the soul ring as much so early. Used to healing people in my rank like a billion times over then I run out of mana.

                                            Fakovnik

                                              1 pt shadow wave ? :(
                                              It does tons of dmg especially early game

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                                              King of Low Prio

                                                it scales really poorly and you get alot more from having more points into grave/poison touch earlier

                                                for example the poison touch

                                                Lvl 1: Slow target by 33% for 3 seconds
                                                Lvl 2: Slow target by 33% for 2 seconds, then slow target by 66% for 1 second
                                                Lvl 3: Slow target by 33% for 1 second, then slow target by 66% for 1 second, then slow target by 100% for 1 second
                                                Lvl 4: Slow target by 33% for 1 second, then slow target by 66% for 1 second, then stun target for 1 second

                                                nebunu la jokuri 77777

                                                  ^Poison touch scales better then wave, I agree, but it seems to me that grave has the worst scaling from dazz spells. It doesn't scale that well in early game.

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                                                  King of Low Prio

                                                    the range allows you to stay save people from a safe distance

                                                    Gustaphos

                                                      @ Wit.HiN_T

                                                      Yeah i know, reasoning why I built my dazz that way for over a year but It seemed to work out with Sampson granted he is bad ass and I get super troll turds in most of my games to justify solo queue healing, if I'm grouping up with someone that doesn't feed and actually can last hit (I.E. Sampson) then it works fine. I'll try it in solo queue then end my night.

                                                      Had a shit game with axe diving offlane, dying before the bell rang and didn't wait for AA to come into lane and help him... then took mid then therefore I stole axe's bottle off courier. This is the kind of games I get solo queuing hence why im down to 2.6k from 3.2k solo queue a month ago. Heads up asses and dumb shit. I'll post how it went after this I guess...

                                                      King of Low Prio

                                                        my brother (4k MM support player) likes to go 3-1-1 because he plays similar to me (forget everything and chase down kills lol)

                                                        Gustaphos

                                                          http://dotabuff.com/matches/623073410

                                                          Nope. No such thing as ELO hell where everyone picks pudge every game right? Fuck dendi in the ass man that turd burgler made this shit hero so popular. Goes mother fucking safe lane with me and insists instead of spectre. God damn.

                                                          Either way............. If I had not solo queued I think the 3-1-1 dazzle build would be better if no pudge safe lane.... god damn solo all pick. 2 months of this shit I keep saying I will switch back to captains mode/draft god damn. Pudge can't get any gayer stupidest hero ever.

                                                          Faded

                                                            simpsun...

                                                            As Yoshi stated:

                                                            "Again, that being said, it's not probably what you say, it's the way you do it, then you make a post and complain again the same way.
                                                            Why all the rage dude? The questions are still there:

                                                            At the end of the day, what have you gained and what have you accomplished?

                                                            On an additional note, just look at the topic you've made. You've been complaining so much about other people's topics, yet you do something similar, construct your topic, put up you idea in a much more elaborate way, this brings nothing."

                                                            And ironically, here's samsung:

                                                            "The people who cant take harsh criticism are not the ones I want to focus on anyway. There was no complex theory that needed to be elaborated on it was mostly a public service announcement and the people who find it offensive are the ones who needed to hear it the most."

                                                            King of Low Prio

                                                              ^ just because you are still angry at me for calling you out for your constant crying doesnt mean you have to follow me into every thread now

                                                              the thread opened up the debate on what is the basics to playing support and later on what is the basics of playing a carrying. So while you might still be upset that called you out on your BS in another thread you might want channel that rage into actually improving yourself :)

                                                              Faded

                                                                dude ur so delusional

                                                                people are just telling you you should "put up or shut up"

                                                                and that you do the EXACT same thing that you bitch about

                                                                at least i admit when i'm being an oversensitive pansy
                                                                you're just in your own fucking little rainbow world

                                                                King of Low Prio

                                                                  where exactly in my post am I blaming anyone in any of my games?

                                                                  where exactly am I blaming my teammates for my own shortcomings?

                                                                  you are making up things because you are still upset and me calling you out on your delusion that you where offering people charity by being on their team.

                                                                  you can continue to try and troll me but I find it hilarious how mad you got over me calling you out on your delusions of grandeur

                                                                  Faded

                                                                    ROFL

                                                                    "playing support"

                                                                    is more than just buying wards...

                                                                    "making things up"

                                                                    dude hold a mirror up to ur god damn face

                                                                    King of Low Prio

                                                                      discussing roles in dota 2 =/ me blaming people in my matches

                                                                      discussing roles in dota 2 =/ me blaming people for my own shortcomings

                                                                      Faded

                                                                        you're just shifting blame onto your supports because you're too shitty to realize your own skill level

                                                                        sound familiar?

                                                                        Yoshi

                                                                          @ßΣτᕆĦ©•Dαßßin
                                                                          It's a lost cause mate :)

                                                                          Nobody here is mad at him because probably at some points he is mad at himself considering all the hate he is spreading.
                                                                          The "i know it all" and the "you are a garbage support" aswell as topics like "i don't like this, now discuss" wont get him far.

                                                                          The poor guy has only two choices, act like he is acting, and take with him those couple people who like to follow him.
                                                                          Or put his shit together and realize this is a community, there are literally people here who would slap him in the face for behaving like this in real, but ofc, in real gets much harder to be a tool, not that it's impossible ofc.

                                                                          What he hasn't learned is the general correct behaviour, he wants to express a point but then uses the worse formula possible.
                                                                          Everyone has to start from somewhere, as I said, some people require 500 games some require 10.

                                                                          Since I am probably a bit older, I can guarantee you that this bring then the people to start hating him just like stated in the previous numerous threads where someone even asked for a ban.

                                                                          Rage or being mad at you Sampson? no, far from it :) I've got better things to do, but that doesn't mean I dont like to post in the forums. There's no crusade, you are just not that important, I just like to point out when someone (ofc in my opinion) is wrong.

                                                                          You keep ignoring the questions

                                                                          EDIT:
                                                                          And all these it's actually a shame, just think about the possibilities once you've got up a good normal discussion.
                                                                          I'm sure you've got some knowledge too, as you stated.

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                                                                          Izerea

                                                                            Sampson + ßΣτᕆĦ©•Dαßßin - agree to disagree? Neither of you are going to win the argument.

                                                                            On Topic : If there's one active item I consider of extremely-high importance for supports to get it's Mekansm. Mekansm saves SO many lives in team-fights it's rediculous. Supports, buy Mek please (and wards, smoke, blah blah blah). Only when you can though, I understand that regular support players have a lot of pressure put on them already.

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                                                                            c4Lツ

                                                                              A fast mek is a good mek. Heroes like Viper and OD can grab those bad boys quick. Someone already said that in this forum on another one I forgot, just repeating what that person said.

                                                                              Faded

                                                                                ofc it's the internet

                                                                                stupidity prevails

                                                                                King of Low Prio

                                                                                  'you're just shifting blame onto your supports because you're too shitty to realize your own skill level'

                                                                                  where exactly did I mention myself at all in my opening post?

                                                                                  i will show you the difference since you seem to be too slow to understand it

                                                                                  Me: These supports are retarded.

                                                                                  You: These supports are retarded and are holding me back and I cant win matches because of them

                                                                                  Tempest Bloom

                                                                                    Nowhere on this thread has Sampson said that other people playing support sub-optimally has had any detriment to him

                                                                                    Dire Wolf

                                                                                      @caveman pudges win as many games for you as they lose
                                                                                      http://dotabuff.com/matches/623119832

                                                                                      Problem is that pudge mid is either winning the game for you or losing it with no in between lol

                                                                                      Faded

                                                                                        @samp

                                                                                        again...

                                                                                        me: "do pros still win those games that end up like 10-0?, i.e. poor team setup (4carry, 1 supp)"

                                                                                        where exactly did I mention myself?

                                                                                        you: "lets be real that is not a avg match for you(look through your own match history)............you can tell the most about a player by how he loses a match and losing a match with a good score is not always a good indication of good play sometimes the opposite. "

                                                                                        you: "omfg l2p support it's so easy plx k anyone can do it (omg that's not even hard to do, that's so basic #notimplyingthati'mbetter"

                                                                                        me (copying your behaviour): "let's be real, supports can't do everything for you and you flaming them probably doesn't help any. you can tell the most about a player by how he tells other people how to play their roles when he can't even do it himself."

                                                                                        King of Low Prio

                                                                                          Do I really have to bring up the real forums logs? Nothing you just posted is even close to what was said..........but hey you are still upset about me calling you out on your delusions so I understand why you are having a little hissy fit

                                                                                          Faded

                                                                                            yo hamsong

                                                                                            do the real log please.

                                                                                            your "........" is always reassuring

                                                                                            King of Low Prio

                                                                                              "sometimes i feel like i definitely can't win

                                                                                              and i dont feel like im the "sole cause" of the loss, and i definitely could still cs better (kinda plateaued) but i'm unsure what else i can do .__.

                                                                                              http://dotabuff.com/matches/620786261

                                                                                              generally an average match for me, this one was a loss

                                                                                              i usually stick with the motto, "if you got nothin good to say don't say it"

                                                                                              was tryin to get my team to push mid, for some odd reason they kept stalling against a late team
                                                                                              maybe the stats don't tell the whole story, but there seems to be some noticeable differences"

                                                                                              clearly you are so delusional you dont even know what you type half the time -_-

                                                                                              Miku Plays

                                                                                                a good support doesnt call gg until all towers are down

                                                                                                Soultrap

                                                                                                  @Sampson
                                                                                                  "well if both teams dont have support players that is balanced :)"

                                                                                                  But game is balanced even if both teams have shitty supports. Or you think that supports in opposite team always better than yours, is that what you thinking?

                                                                                                  P.S. Stubborn person who buys MoM+blink dagger on Drow Ranger in every game don't have rights to ask others to alter their gameplay.

                                                                                                  King of Low Prio

                                                                                                    "Or you think that supports in opposite team always better than yours, is that what you thinking?"

                                                                                                    where exactly did I say that there are only shitty supports on my team? I said there are shitty support players in general.

                                                                                                    'Stubborn person who buys MoM+blink dagger on Drow Ranger in every game don't have rights to ask others to alter their gameplay.'

                                                                                                    I dont want advice from the person who still believes drow ranger is a support hero

                                                                                                    Soultrap

                                                                                                      @Sampson
                                                                                                      If both teams have to deal with same low-skilled supports, who cares?

                                                                                                      We already seen Meepo and Faceless Void as supports. Few days ago Arteezy played support Ember Spirit on International. What are you waiting for? Puppey plays Drow Ranger?... Few heroes can be good carries, but many heroes can be good supports.