notail does not play meepo as a support. He happens to be Fnatics support player when he plays meepo. He buys ward/courier because meepo does not need to farm the lane early and to help out the solo support, he just needs levels. Offlane void /= support void -_-
@Sampson
60% slow
6 sec AOE silence
+damage aura for ranged heroes and ranged creeps
And don't really needs items, because she gets +40/60/80 agility for free.
Sounds like a good support for me.
P.S. Ok, you already said many times that playing support is more than buying specific items. Maybe you can say exactly what it is to be a support in your opinion?
@#notbitter
This is not about guts. Sometimes you meet Sand King with Quelling Blade killing creeps in your lane. Some people start bragging, AFK or ragequit. I just say: "Ok, mr. Sand King get your farm, I'll be your support Drow Ranger." Simple as that.
P.S. I don't think Arteezy planned to be support Ember Spirit from beginning, but he adapted to what team needs. Profit...
In fact, a lot of heroes can be supporters, but ofc, god forbid to mention it till someone plays the mentioned hero in the pro scene.
As Soultrap said, drow has the potential to be a support hero, it just depends on how you want to play it.
It's silly that your sentences must be applied only to others, but I still remember that couple threads ago people were asking for a ban for you, I wonder why since you are so damn polite :))))
If you happen to be in a situation where both teams have shitty supporters that it should equal just like the both teams not having one with this theory.
drow as a support? wtf am i reading.
support where? vs bots?
shitty ass slow that requires her to put herself in constant danger, a silence (holy shit a silence), aura that's wack without items and best support ultimate in game.
if she would ever be on 3 lane against normal 3 lane with normal 2 supports you would realize how trash support she really is.
60% slow and 6 silence xD if she were to start with level 11. and supports are known to not be under leveled. not at all.
Still, she is viable, especially where you end up in games with 5 carries where you are going to have better one than drow anyway.
A hero has to be played in the pro scene and end everyone flips and says "wow, yeah, I've always said she was a great support!"
Being close-minded wont help you.
I don't see how 60% slow and a 6 seconds AOE silence make her bad either
Again, lots of heroes have good potential for adaptation.
Drow is the best support in a team of 5 carries.
Other supports do the job better, so there's no reason to pick her for the support role, unless MAYBE you have an entirely ranged team.
But she's better as a carry, as are pretty much all heroes who hold the "carry" title
This is so fucking dumb and painful to read. Any hero can support yes, but should you?
The issue is this happens all the time in the lower brackets where people pick "unconventional" supports but in the end it's all the same where they then try and scale the hero back to it's original use.
Pudge support - Gets a few kills then just ganks and goes blink/force and normal items.....so basically just a roaming pudge and not really a support.
Drow support - Gets a few kills and then realizes that drow is actually a good carry...so, lets fucking jungle farm to catch up on farm so drow can carry late.
....and on and on.
If you like the slow and the silence then maybe just play her as a carry with another support in the lane so you have slow + Silence + aura + whatever additional support you picked.
Perhaps something like this http://dotabuff.com/matches/624353124 where drow is either mid or solo safe while you trilane aggressive. She still helps the team with the aura but is able to get decent farm to not make her just a shitty ass silence before she dies to like 2 right clicks from a farmed carry.
there is a huge difference between a good support and shit tier support that's not actually a support to begin with.
and you don't need anyone to tell you that, most certainly not wait for someone in the pro scene to experiment with. on scale from 1 to 10 drow support is 2.
edit: and if you think that's enough for a hero to be considered a support then apparently you know dota better than I do.
Lets take my terror support for example, this is not just something I pick and afk in the safe lane solo with while "supporting". I pick terror because of his early game aggression and ability to wreck stupid rightclicking safe lane farmers. I buy key items like Mek and drums but I am not just "supporting" because I said I was. I am actually proving the heroes worth as a utility support.
For instance neither alch, drow, terror, skeleton and such "unconventional" supports are actual supports but are used with aggression in mind or in a trilane. The reason drow doesn't fit this bill so well is that a slow is not enough to go on as trilanes are better paired with either a slow with longevity or a lockdown hex or stun. Utilizing drow in the way you guys speak of is more using her as an aura carrier/pusher etc. but even then those things require a base level of farm which if you can't get, is again rendering the hero under utilized and bad.
In the hard support rank of 1-10 here is my thoughts...
Drow - 2
Skeleton - 4
Terror - 4
Alchemist - 5
...this is because they are not built as hard support whereas a CM or Lion wouldn't mind being robbed of farm or dying but the above heroes get utterly wrecked if they literally have zero farm.
However these numbers change if they are played in a trilane or roaming or as a solo farmer safe lane.
but still as you can see in the vast selection of roaming aggressive utility heroes drow comes lower than them all which begs the question why you would pick here if you don't intend on getting at least a little bit of levels and farm on here. Maybe safelane her till level 6 (about 5-7 minutes) then rotate her bot into the trilane to get kills and push the tower with her crazy ult cause she would have had about 5 -7 minutes of free farm which is boots and another small item (aquilla maybe) which can help kill and push lane towers.
No need Sampson, people get banned, when they deserve a ban. If I am not mistaken you've been gone already once, if you will be gone a second time, I'll know why is that.
I was just stating a fact there.
I've reached the finish line, you've expressed your point, I've expressed mine.
Fair enough
The only Time I was banned for a day was when I called a forum mod a fucking waste of money for not doing their job. I have never been banned for flaming anyone (non mod)
I played support Juggernaut once. Worked out pretty well actually...
But Drow is a terrible support. What can you give to your team except for slow and silence? Drow doesn't have a stun or solid nukes.
If you're support, then you're underleveled, which means:
1) you'll need to wait quite a while before you get your 60% slow;
2) your ultimate will kick in on much later stage of game, making its effect drastically weaker;
3) your aura is a bullshit. By the time you will actually level it, damage bonus will become obsolete, and it's not like you'll have any money for big agility items.
Now name me at least one reason, someone should pick Drow over Venomancer as a support?
@Havoc Badger
Ranking can't be absolute numbers. For example Dazzle is very popular support now, and considered strong. Lets give Dazzle 8 points in your ranking system. But what if enemy team has AA and Axe? How much Dazzle worth now? 2? Maybe 3?
Same logic applies to Drow, maybe she worth 5 points as a carry, but if she countered he doesn't worth as much. So, question is: do you want to have countered carry Drow or countered support Drow? Answer is easy, think...
If Drow is countered as a carry, she'll suck even more as a support. Use her as a pusher, she can mow down towers relatively fast if people leave one alone for a few seconds.
Rambo talks about permanent level 1 support, because this support never pulls, to not make carry "tank creeps".
This support never sits in lane with carry (even to attack enemy offlaner).
This support runs around with creative ward in his ass.
This support always sitting inside own base, because someone from enemy team missing and it's too risky to move outside.
And this support obviously can't gank mid, because he is level 1...
You're taking everything too literal. While I don't agree with his aggressive tone, he is right.
Don't pull, if the creep equilibrium is in front of your tower. If you pull a full wave, either he's going to take harass/miss last hits.
Sit with your carry for the first couple levels. It's okay to leech exp. If your vs 1, zone him out from last hitting, and exp range if possible. If vs 2, then harass them if you can, help last hit for denies or even last hits if your farmer isn't getting to it.
Not really quite sure what you mean by creative ward
If the teams missing, don't sit in your base. move with team if you're absolutely scared and don't want to be caught out. If you're doing nothing, you're falling behind.
Gank mid. If 1, it's even better. A kill on their mid can win the game, or a failed gank which harasses them heavily can also have a big impact...
@frostychee
You are one of the very few people who have right to argue in this topic. I watched few games of yours (Ogre and Sand King). I play in similar way as you do, but you are far more experienced. I wish my gameplay will be on same quality as yours someday.
With all respect, you like nobody else must understand that sometimes it's not even worth a try to gank mid. For example if you have to deal with elusive heroes like Puck or QoP (unless you have few specific heroes to deal with them... silence? glimpse?).
And I absolutely agree that "it's okay to leech exp", this is why greedy players like Rambo drive me mad so much. Support deserves that XP if he has reason to stay in range (harass, zone-out, protect).
its ok to pull at certain times if lets say, you're a tri safe vs a solo offlane, and you've zoned the offlane to the point where they're sittin out of exp range
if you think your carry can handle the harass and take less by kiting, while still csing, then go ahead (i actually like it cause it soaks up less exp, and it gives them gold if they farm the pull)
heroes that can pull this off, off the top of my head, "PA, void, spec, etc"
average durability with stout + tangos + good base dmg and bat
Well yeah, some heroes are ungankable like qop and puck, but if you can do a decent amount of damage, you can force regen, and give your mid a huge advantage. Getting lucky runes can help make a mid gank very possible. If i remember, I got a haste in this game and got their storm. http://dotabuff.com/matches/623262613
And if you watched those 2 games, that Orge game I did pretty much nothing. Sand King game was horrible. Qop beat Bat hard. Not a fan at all of 2 melee in a trilane. Kited for days.
On an unrelated note, how do you even watch random people's games. Didn't know it was possible.
Maybe a post on some good basic early/mid/late game slot 5 carry would be good for this thread instead of Beta's rage face picture and rants coming up would be more productive let alone my poor dazzle lately.
Nobody mentioned aggro trilanes so far. And I'm not very good in games of this kind. If anybody has opinions about my game or trilanes in general (positioning in lane, synergy in skill builds, etc), please share.
If you had the clinkz, venge and AA in a trilane then you failed already.
Dazzle wrecks aggro trilanes cause any jump you get will just be healed off or shallow graved.
Lich wrecks trilanes cause he just denies you exp and the lane will always be at their tower.
notail does not play meepo as a support. He happens to be Fnatics support player when he plays meepo. He buys ward/courier because meepo does not need to farm the lane early and to help out the solo support, he just needs levels. Offlane void /= support void -_-
'Playing support is more than buying wards', you might want to learn that before you think every hero that buys a ward becomes a support ......
@Sampson
60% slow
6 sec AOE silence
+damage aura for ranged heroes and ranged creeps
And don't really needs items, because she gets +40/60/80 agility for free.
Sounds like a good support for me.
P.S. Ok, you already said many times that playing support is more than buying specific items. Maybe you can say exactly what it is to be a support in your opinion?
Support Drow (like support Legion) is one of those things I always thought about but never actually had the guts to try lol
@#notbitter
This is not about guts. Sometimes you meet Sand King with Quelling Blade killing creeps in your lane. Some people start bragging, AFK or ragequit. I just say: "Ok, mr. Sand King get your farm, I'll be your support Drow Ranger." Simple as that.
P.S. I don't think Arteezy planned to be support Ember Spirit from beginning, but he adapted to what team needs. Profit...
feeding =/ support
feeding =/ DOTA
@Sampson
"if you got nothing good to say don't say it"
I am so amused by this :)
In fact, a lot of heroes can be supporters, but ofc, god forbid to mention it till someone plays the mentioned hero in the pro scene.
As Soultrap said, drow has the potential to be a support hero, it just depends on how you want to play it.
It's silly that your sentences must be applied only to others, but I still remember that couple threads ago people were asking for a ban for you, I wonder why since you are so damn polite :))))
If you happen to be in a situation where both teams have shitty supporters that it should equal just like the both teams not having one with this theory.
drow as a support? wtf am i reading.
support where? vs bots?
shitty ass slow that requires her to put herself in constant danger, a silence (holy shit a silence), aura that's wack without items and best support ultimate in game.
if she would ever be on 3 lane against normal 3 lane with normal 2 supports you would realize how trash support she really is.
60% slow and 6 silence xD if she were to start with level 11. and supports are known to not be under leveled. not at all.
Nobody said she is the ultimate support.
Still, she is viable, especially where you end up in games with 5 carries where you are going to have better one than drow anyway.
A hero has to be played in the pro scene and end everyone flips and says "wow, yeah, I've always said she was a great support!"
Being close-minded wont help you.
I don't see how 60% slow and a 6 seconds AOE silence make her bad either
Again, lots of heroes have good potential for adaptation.
Drow is the best support in a team of 5 carries.
Other supports do the job better, so there's no reason to pick her for the support role, unless MAYBE you have an entirely ranged team.
But she's better as a carry, as are pretty much all heroes who hold the "carry" title
This is so fucking dumb and painful to read. Any hero can support yes, but should you?
The issue is this happens all the time in the lower brackets where people pick "unconventional" supports but in the end it's all the same where they then try and scale the hero back to it's original use.
Pudge support - Gets a few kills then just ganks and goes blink/force and normal items.....so basically just a roaming pudge and not really a support.
Drow support - Gets a few kills and then realizes that drow is actually a good carry...so, lets fucking jungle farm to catch up on farm so drow can carry late.
....and on and on.
If you like the slow and the silence then maybe just play her as a carry with another support in the lane so you have slow + Silence + aura + whatever additional support you picked.
Perhaps something like this http://dotabuff.com/matches/624353124 where drow is either mid or solo safe while you trilane aggressive. She still helps the team with the aura but is able to get decent farm to not make her just a shitty ass silence before she dies to like 2 right clicks from a farmed carry.
^that.
Just because a hero has the capability to support it doesn't always make it viable
any hero can be a support if they want them to be!! and yes i agree with support drow ranger
there is a huge difference between a good support and shit tier support that's not actually a support to begin with.
and you don't need anyone to tell you that, most certainly not wait for someone in the pro scene to experiment with. on scale from 1 to 10 drow support is 2.
edit: and if you think that's enough for a hero to be considered a support then apparently you know dota better than I do.
Lets take my terror support for example, this is not just something I pick and afk in the safe lane solo with while "supporting". I pick terror because of his early game aggression and ability to wreck stupid rightclicking safe lane farmers. I buy key items like Mek and drums but I am not just "supporting" because I said I was. I am actually proving the heroes worth as a utility support.
For instance neither alch, drow, terror, skeleton and such "unconventional" supports are actual supports but are used with aggression in mind or in a trilane. The reason drow doesn't fit this bill so well is that a slow is not enough to go on as trilanes are better paired with either a slow with longevity or a lockdown hex or stun. Utilizing drow in the way you guys speak of is more using her as an aura carrier/pusher etc. but even then those things require a base level of farm which if you can't get, is again rendering the hero under utilized and bad.
In the hard support rank of 1-10 here is my thoughts...
Drow - 2
Skeleton - 4
Terror - 4
Alchemist - 5
...this is because they are not built as hard support whereas a CM or Lion wouldn't mind being robbed of farm or dying but the above heroes get utterly wrecked if they literally have zero farm.
However these numbers change if they are played in a trilane or roaming or as a solo farmer safe lane.
Drow - 5
Skeleton - 6
Terror - 10
Alchemist - 6 (probably higher prepatch nerf)
but still as you can see in the vast selection of roaming aggressive utility heroes drow comes lower than them all which begs the question why you would pick here if you don't intend on getting at least a little bit of levels and farm on here. Maybe safelane her till level 6 (about 5-7 minutes) then rotate her bot into the trilane to get kills and push the tower with her crazy ult cause she would have had about 5 -7 minutes of free farm which is boots and another small item (aquilla maybe) which can help kill and push lane towers.
@Yoshi
yes you can line up with Hael on trying to get me banned -_-
The only thing I have changed is less cussing people out after Jason complained
dude ur clearly delusional
nowhere did i mention it was my team's fault
yet you're clearly shifting blame onto your supports and telling them how to do their job even though you're in the same shit tier skill bracket
No need Sampson, people get banned, when they deserve a ban. If I am not mistaken you've been gone already once, if you will be gone a second time, I'll know why is that.
I was just stating a fact there.
I've reached the finish line, you've expressed your point, I've expressed mine.
Fair enough
The only Time I was banned for a day was when I called a forum mod a fucking waste of money for not doing their job. I have never been banned for flaming anyone (non mod)
I played support Juggernaut once. Worked out pretty well actually...
But Drow is a terrible support. What can you give to your team except for slow and silence? Drow doesn't have a stun or solid nukes.
If you're support, then you're underleveled, which means:
1) you'll need to wait quite a while before you get your 60% slow;
2) your ultimate will kick in on much later stage of game, making its effect drastically weaker;
3) your aura is a bullshit. By the time you will actually level it, damage bonus will become obsolete, and it's not like you'll have any money for big agility items.
Now name me at least one reason, someone should pick Drow over Venomancer as a support?
@Havoc Badger
Ranking can't be absolute numbers. For example Dazzle is very popular support now, and considered strong. Lets give Dazzle 8 points in your ranking system. But what if enemy team has AA and Axe? How much Dazzle worth now? 2? Maybe 3?
Same logic applies to Drow, maybe she worth 5 points as a carry, but if she countered he doesn't worth as much. So, question is: do you want to have countered carry Drow or countered support Drow? Answer is easy, think...
If Drow is countered as a carry, she'll suck even more as a support. Use her as a pusher, she can mow down towers relatively fast if people leave one alone for a few seconds.
Soultrap is still on dota 101 dont confuse him with dota 102
Support Drow isn't even a thing. Can't do anything without levels and farm.
Skill Bracket
High
...
Ok, lets forget about support Drow. I don't know much about this game, I agree with that.
Back on topic...
If playing support is more than buying specific items, then what it is?
read rambo's hate list
Rambo talks about permanent level 1 support, because this support never pulls, to not make carry "tank creeps".
This support never sits in lane with carry (even to attack enemy offlaner).
This support runs around with creative ward in his ass.
This support always sitting inside own base, because someone from enemy team missing and it's too risky to move outside.
And this support obviously can't gank mid, because he is level 1...
You're taking everything too literal. While I don't agree with his aggressive tone, he is right.
Don't pull, if the creep equilibrium is in front of your tower. If you pull a full wave, either he's going to take harass/miss last hits.
Sit with your carry for the first couple levels. It's okay to leech exp. If your vs 1, zone him out from last hitting, and exp range if possible. If vs 2, then harass them if you can, help last hit for denies or even last hits if your farmer isn't getting to it.
Not really quite sure what you mean by creative ward
If the teams missing, don't sit in your base. move with team if you're absolutely scared and don't want to be caught out. If you're doing nothing, you're falling behind.
Gank mid. If 1, it's even better. A kill on their mid can win the game, or a failed gank which harasses them heavily can also have a big impact...
@frostychee
You are one of the very few people who have right to argue in this topic. I watched few games of yours (Ogre and Sand King). I play in similar way as you do, but you are far more experienced. I wish my gameplay will be on same quality as yours someday.
With all respect, you like nobody else must understand that sometimes it's not even worth a try to gank mid. For example if you have to deal with elusive heroes like Puck or QoP (unless you have few specific heroes to deal with them... silence? glimpse?).
And I absolutely agree that "it's okay to leech exp", this is why greedy players like Rambo drive me mad so much. Support deserves that XP if he has reason to stay in range (harass, zone-out, protect).
frostychee
its ok to pull at certain times if lets say, you're a tri safe vs a solo offlane, and you've zoned the offlane to the point where they're sittin out of exp range
if you think your carry can handle the harass and take less by kiting, while still csing, then go ahead (i actually like it cause it soaks up less exp, and it gives them gold if they farm the pull)
heroes that can pull this off, off the top of my head, "PA, void, spec, etc"
average durability with stout + tangos + good base dmg and bat
Well yeah, some heroes are ungankable like qop and puck, but if you can do a decent amount of damage, you can force regen, and give your mid a huge advantage. Getting lucky runes can help make a mid gank very possible. If i remember, I got a haste in this game and got their storm. http://dotabuff.com/matches/623262613
And if you watched those 2 games, that Orge game I did pretty much nothing. Sand King game was horrible. Qop beat Bat hard. Not a fan at all of 2 melee in a trilane. Kited for days.
On an unrelated note, how do you even watch random people's games. Didn't know it was possible.
^Copy game ID from dotabuff to in-game [watch] => [recent games] => [filter] =>[match id]
going to gank mid does not mean you always secure a kill but it does give your mid a slight edge. These small things have huge effects on the mid game
i thought support was throwing up a witch doctor ward mid fight and getting 2-5 kills making carries rage?
Maybe a post on some good basic early/mid/late game slot 5 carry would be good for this thread instead of Beta's rage face picture and rants coming up would be more productive let alone my poor dazzle lately.
My recent game reminded me about one more interesting aspect of supports life.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/626254200
Nobody mentioned aggro trilanes so far. And I'm not very good in games of this kind. If anybody has opinions about my game or trilanes in general (positioning in lane, synergy in skill builds, etc), please share.
If you had the clinkz, venge and AA in a trilane then you failed already.
Dazzle wrecks aggro trilanes cause any jump you get will just be healed off or shallow graved.
Lich wrecks trilanes cause he just denies you exp and the lane will always be at their tower.
@Havoc Badger
I have to agree with you.
But if our plan was a mistake, then tell me what we had to do?
Good support means sure win.
Heres a support nightmare in a captains draft that I haven't drafted in ages:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/626084958
Usually the guy that played SS I roll with does an excellent support. IDK what happened but again that is so much feed it requires a GG function :(
I'm on a sweet losing streak man don't stop me now! Road to 2k here i come!