General Discussion

General DiscussionVanguard Anti-Mage?

Vanguard Anti-Mage? in General Discussion
yiran

    From the past few games I played where there was an Anti-Mage, he most often succeeded when he went Vanguard instead of Battlefury. Is the early teamfight presence worth a lot more in pubs where your team is not used to 4v5?

    I say this because last game we had an Anti-Mage and then Weaver/Abaddon/Invoker/AM. And I was like well shit no supports (pub Abaddons aren't supports) and I went Crystal Maiden ward bitch. The Anti-Mage proceeded to go Vanguard and kill people, even though Bloodseeker is a strong counter to him. There were two cases where he got ruptured and bloodraged and managed to get a kill before he died in front of a few enemies.

    (If you're one of those Vanguard sucks never get it people please don't post here.)

    salt enjoyer

      1. Vanguard increases AM's durablity in the early game enabling him to fight.
      2. Vanguard is more commonly seen on AM in lower MMR brackets so anything could potentially work.
      3. While he was fighting a lot he didn't exactly succeed at playing AM. (10-7 and got carried by a weaver who built right)
      4. Bloodseeker is equally as useless as a Vanguard AM so the fact he won is null.

      In summary it is a ok pickup which enables him to fight earlier on but its not a really good pick up as the hero is so wank anyways. You would be better off with a Poor Mans and a vitality booster which you hold till heart to give you any durability you can get.

      Thoughts: If you could dismantle vangaurd to finish your BF with the ring and then turn the vitality booster into a heart it would make an early vanguard on AM 100% viable but as it stands I wouldn't get it on him.

      This comment was edited
      Dunning-Kruger-Doto

        AM strength is his mobility, that allows him to flashfarm and his low BAT. You simply outfarm the enemy and splitpush. Not doing this, is like going carry witch doctor. Can work, but it is crap.

        Answer to your question by the best anti mage player on this planet:

        Interviewer: Ever since you said after TI3, that if you get Anti-mage then you can win, people in pubs have been picking Anti-mage every game. Of course, none of them have won, so what advice can you give to those people? That way they won’t be ruining Anti-mage’s reputation, and we can all learn a bit from you on how to play AM.

        Burning: Anti-mage’s strength lies in overwhelming the opposition with items. If he can’t lead in terms of items, then he actually can’t out-fight many other lategame heroes. So don’t get Vanguard on him, just rush that fast Battlefury and farm it up.

        End

        of

        discussion

        Dire Wolf

          The ring of health and a stout shield should be plenty to allow you to stay in lane, poor man's shield if you really want it. No point in wasting your ring on a vanguard plus a vit booster.

          casual gamer

            I remember seeing someone from playdota a while back who had ~65% WR going sny on AM.

            Bfury first probably always best even late because you can create space with split pushing and farm fast enough to catch up.

            salt enjoyer

              SnY is totally a thing on AM cause you can disassemble it later for manta and it gives you good durability early.

              Trodlabundin

                I've never tried SnY, sounds good in theory, but I can's see it work out efficiently. You'll be farming and getting a SnY that last for 3-5min sounds unreasonable to me. What are you gonna use Sange to? Rather waste of gold, get as Havoc said earlier, PMS + Vit booster and farm your way with battlefury.

                Luxon

                  "Bloodseeker is equally as useless as a Vanguard AM so the fact he won is null."
                  why?

                  ☛ ƊƦ.ӍѺƝֆƬ€Ʀ

                    antimage cant fight before getting at least 3 items (ex: furry, manta, heart or bfly), he surely cant fight with a vanguard, thus vanguard only delays his 3 big items => always bad to get a vanguard.

                    casual gamer

                      My understanding is that both chasing and hp items are very efficient on AM. The extra ms enhances his already excellent ms, the maim synergizes with his low BAT, and hp is multiplied by spell shield.

                      If your team has low disable and they have no ensnares consider sny/basher over manta/reaver because manta illusions are rather easy to kite and sny actually really helps your solo killing power.

                      This is still all theorycraft though, I've never bought an sny on AM

                      This comment was edited
                      Sayzee

                        I say no to vanguard, u won't be able to carry easily, and u r not supposed to initiate or something, the ones who build vanguard r the tanky initiators/just tanky, like Cent, Axe, Bristle, but AM is all about farm.
                        Being successful doesn't mean that item is, it means the team was.
                        I sometimes build right and play gd, but still lose, sometimes a play miserable and still win, does it mean my build was right? No, it's the team.
                        And he had 250 creeps in 40 minutes, if he didn't have Weaver, surely he would lose.

                        Born

                          it's not always bad. I won plenty, lost as well, games where am just gets crushed even if he gas fury/manta. coz he still has 1k hp.
                          for example having vg, that you can disassemble for fury and hot is not that bad anyways since its not 'wasted' gold.

                          it's up to you to evaluate the situation and whether can you go glass canon relying on your teammates to hold on 4v5.

                          Sayzee

                            It would delay ur fury at least 5 minutes, instead of getting it minute 11-13, u would get it minute 18, that is if it was a perfect game for u.
                            I would build vanguard ONLY if I am feeding.
                            And I try my best to not feed.

                            PS, those 2 games aren't mine:
                            http://dotabuff.com/matches/286400459
                            http://dotabuff.com/matches/300819277
                            U can notice that from the horrible low farm, and unusual item line-up.

                            Dire Wolf

                              I'm not totally against s&y though. If skipping battlefury I'd go yasha first anyway, throwing sange on top of it isn't terrible. If I want to just farm a couple cheap items to fight early though I'd probably yasha then maelstrom into mjolnir.

                              Born

                                i mean i wouldnt get vg and then proceed to farm some more. I would definitely look for engagements when they occur.

                                Wink

                                  nononononononononononono

                                  Jing

                                    y ppl overcomplicate things, get vanguard when ur getting raped in lane and in situations where ur team is getting raped so u need to help them out early, if u get vanguard when ur perfect csing when no1 in lane or free farm ur just retarded

                                    yiran

                                      Getting battlefury doesn't work for me. You either die to enemy ganks, or avoid them so much you lose farm.

                                      http://dotabuff.com/players/144866495/matches?hero=anti-mage&lobby_type=&game_mode=&match_type=real

                                      yiran

                                        the games i won i mostly got carried by my team

                                        salt enjoyer

                                          That is not your fault. AM is a really bad hero in this current meta and has the not just one of the lowest winrates of a carry but the lowest overall of almost every hero. The current meta favors the early roams, push, ganks, and team effort which is something that AM doesn't do well with or against.

                                          Dunning-Kruger-Doto

                                            It is your fault... You just don't play him well enough. You can join teamfights with mantastyle, you just need to know when and how. AM is not part of the current meta, and its still possible to win with him. Just keep training with him. It took me 140 games to get him to 50% winratio. This month my WR is 81%, this patch 53%. So it takes a while, and you still won't be as effective as an ember or terrorblade, but you can still become a positive factor for your team (aka not lowering their winchances by picking am).

                                            vetochka

                                              If only vanguard would be disassemble-able...

                                              salt enjoyer

                                                This is my issue with the item, it provide decent enough stats and durablity for the first 10-20 mins but then just becomes a dead item in your inventory after than. Being able to disassemble it would make it viable and more useful so you can swap for things like heart/pipe (on Cent), Atos/bloodstone (on Axe), Battlefury, heart (on AM) etc.

                                                Phenomenal

                                                  Totally agree with Havoc and others on disassemble thing here.

                                                  yiran

                                                    He's probably just a bad hero. Pub winrate doesn't mean too much but when it gets as low as 40% it starts to get shaky.

                                                    I get battlefury at a decent speed in general, not professional speed but good for pubs (~14-18min). But at this point my team starts losing 4v5 quite often and I can't participate in teamfights because AM sucks at them but I also can't farm that fast because the jungle still deals net damage to you (aka you can't just jungle forever because you're running out of health) until you get yasha and something else, but I can't push either because the other team will try and find me.

                                                    :///

                                                    apeps god

                                                      Get good.

                                                      Born

                                                        and that made me look it up. the fuck you cant dis vg for...

                                                        Jing

                                                          lol beesa and his 80% am winrate, haha, yeah damn right, get on beesas level and ez games

                                                          suxproxx

                                                            nooooooooooooooooooooo

                                                            Guts

                                                              Am battlefury is still better, however you need to play the game of last hitting, creep lane control, staying alive almost flawlessly to play this build effectively.

                                                              The battlefury basically opens the door to uber-speed farming for anti-mage, you can also start killing once you get a yasha+treads. AM is a very tactical hero with that 5 sec cd blink

                                                              Wink

                                                                You shouldn't be pubbing AM in the first place

                                                                Dunning-Kruger-Doto

                                                                  I don't know why, but I have more difficulties getting spectre on 50% wr than I had with antimage. Getting radiance is way harder than getting battlefury and spectre is so vulnerable to ganks...

                                                                  Polkadot Piranha

                                                                    I don't see any harm in getting a naked Vitality Booster along with a Poor Man's Shield and a Ring of Health. It's generally a 20%+ increase of his HP when you get it (usually more), and given his abyssmal Strength gain, it seems advisable if you don't have a team that can go 4v5. The RoH is still needed for the Battlefury, and later on you can use the Vit booster for your Heart.

                                                                    This comment was edited
                                                                    Faded

                                                                      ^

                                                                      http://dotabuff.com/matches/625824067

                                                                      give me AM tips this game

                                                                      Dire Wolf

                                                                        @9v1 don't blindly rush radiance. Going treads drums or phase boots drums gives you a lot of teamfight potential with just two items. If you have a good babysitter than by all means farm that radiance but it's not a 100% core item like battlefury is on AM. Also AM has a much better escape than spectre. Spectre needs more help in lane early imo.

                                                                        Sayzee

                                                                          @Dodo Basse
                                                                          Well, the vitality booster would delay ur Fury so much, unless u r a gd player, and u still manage to get fury before minute 18, but, why would some gd player go vitality booster, just play safe instead, and if u r not that gd of a player/farmer, then u would get fury minute 22 by minimum, and whenever this happened with me, I lost.

                                                                          Vanguard is ONLY gd if u have another carry with u in the team, and enemy team has none, or bad carry players.
                                                                          Then u might have a chance of winning after going vanguard.

                                                                          Polkadot Piranha

                                                                            @MapzOr

                                                                            The whole discussion is centered around the potential need to fight early and how Vanguard could help out there. My point is that a naked vit booster can basically do the same thing if you throw some money at a poor man's shield as well (an upgrade that's often a good idea to get early on anyhow assuming you started with a stout shield). A vit booster can delay your battlefury, sure, but if the vit booster can save you from a death because you had 1000 hp instead of 800 hp, it was probably a good investment. A vit booster certainly shouldn't delay your Battlefury as much as till past 20+ minutes - if it does, it's not the vit booster that's the problem.

                                                                            Again, not a question of wether you can survive farming, it's a question of wether the vit booster allows you to participate in fights that might otherwise have resulted in your 4 other team mates dying (usually followed up by 1-2 lost towers) rather than just rushing straight to the battlefury. Given that the vit booster can be used as part of a Heart later on, a rather massive increase in effective HP could certainly be considered viable.

                                                                            EDIT: If you are not "that good of a farmer" you shouldn't be playing AM or a carry at all in the first place.

                                                                            This comment was edited
                                                                            Kryptnyt

                                                                              The first step to being a good Antimage is knowing when to not pick Antimage. Pick him when he counters the enemy heroes, not when he's destroyed by their silences, pure damage/hp removal nukes, heavy lockdowns...

                                                                              Quick maffs

                                                                                "You shouldn't be pubbing AM in the first place"

                                                                                Yep, i love how he keeps getting his ulti buffed ..... like that does something ...........

                                                                                Noé

                                                                                  I don't know about vanguard anti-mage, but i just played against a midas off-lane AM that didn't go battlefury.
                                                                                  10/10 would commend

                                                                                  yiran

                                                                                    anti mage only works if you counter literally all 5 of the enemy heroes, i realise

                                                                                    http://dotabuff.com/matches/626606061

                                                                                    ♥ Mun ♥

                                                                                      the old dota (6.5x) if i remembered, when vanguard was really strong, get it is viable even with sniper, but now no way u should build that on AM than Battlefury then manta and heart

                                                                                      This comment was edited