Is It Too Early To Nerf Kunkka?
Even though Patch 7.16 tweaked Kunkka’s level 25 talent (50% Tidebringer cleave damage), Kunkka’s effectiveness as a core in the meta is undeniable. With a string of buffs over recent patches and the reversion of the mid lane meta to one on one matchups, Kunkka has appeared on the big stage at recent tournaments.
Kunkka was banned nearly every game for a day at the recent ESL One Birmingham Major. Then, on the Grand Finals stage, VP picked Kunkka for No[o]ne in game 2, who held his own in the laning stage against Razor (a hero who commonly dominates against melee heroes) and sealed the game winning fight.
VP.No[o]ne with a well timed Torrent and an X Marks The Spot to pick off the retreating OpTic teamAt MDL Changsha, Kunkka was the fifth most contested hero of the tournament. At the Epicenter XL Major before that, PSG.LGD kicked off the grand finals series with a game 1 win off Somnus’ core Kunkka, which prompted VP to deny pick him in the first round of game 2, and expend a 2nd round ban in game 3.
LGD.Somnus lands an augmented Tidebringer crit at Epicenter XL
Right Place At The Right Time
Kunkka as a core hero isn’t anything new. For years, Attacker and his bag of tricks practically rode the hero into MMR heaven. Kunkka’s sweep of Talent buffs, including the +50% Tidebringer damage, appeared in patch 7.07, 7 months ago. But it’s only his recent success that has prompted a nerf from Valve. As the meta has shifted toward a fighting dynamic, teams are starting to find that Kunkka proves to be a great fit.
He’s great against meta picks of Phantom Lancer and Dragon Knight. The synergy of Torrent and X that makes him potent as a support hero also makes him a constant threat to opposing midlaners. Ghostship is a devastating spell with a 40s cooldown. And with the midlane returning to a more traditional, 1v1 rhythm, Kunkka shines with Tidebringer.
Last Hitting on Easy Mode
Dota’s quirkiness is built on strange spell interactions. While Valve has ironed out some of the game’s eccentricities over the years, a few still remain. For example, Tidebringer applies its bonus damage on creep denies without expending a charge. And here’s another one: the damage from Tidebringer’s cleave is applied as if the unit had 0 armor, regardless of the armor of the initial target. This interaction works in contradiction to a spell like Templar Assassin’s Psi Blades, which deals the same amount of damage to the cleaved target as the initial target.
The practical difference is that as TA you can gain an advantage by targeting the spill damage off a lower armored unit (melee creeps have 2 armor). And as Kunkka, it doesn’t matter.
Call it a bug or an intended trait, but that’s how the spell has always worked. And now that Kunkka is a viable pick in the meta, every advantage he has can feel a bit overpowered. With teams like Secret and PSG.LGD putting Kunkka on the map, we’re now noticing the buffs that he’s been getting under the radar.
His base regen moved from 0 to 1.5, and his Strength gain increased from 3 to 3.3—an important attribute due to how Crits scale with base stats. Patch 7.10 buffed Tidebringer’s damage from 25/45/65/85 to 25/50/75/100. And 7.07 added crucial talents that aid his early and mid game growth.
Not only was Tidebringer already complete nuisance to navigate around in the laning stage, it got buffed along with Kunkka’s tankiness. At just level 3, with level 2 Tidebringer, he has 50 bonus damage to deny creeps and to harass his opponent. By level 5, with both Torrent and X Marks The Spot at his disposal, he’s a threat to initiate. With X’s duration at 4 seconds, his teammates don’t even need to be in position. They can just TP in.
Does The Latest Nerf Matter?
There are plenty of strong level 25 talents, but Kunkka’s 50% Cleave damage had the feeling of being too strong. It’s the helpless feeling of being one shotted from 1200 range away that might have prompted Valve to make a move.
From our statistics across pubs, the talent has offered little to no advantage over the Ghostship Fleet (+3 Ghostships). Nonetheless, it has been pivotal in closing out a few games at recent Majors. Teams are not picking Kunkka and banking on getting him to level 25, armed with two Daedaluses, but it's a nice option to have as a late game ace.
Though the nerf targets his late game potential, his potency in the meta hinges on his strength in the early and mid game. So far, the change seems misplaced. Who knows, Kunkka may just end up being the flavor of the month, as teams concoct more strategies to counter him. But the 7.16 nerf seems like it won't be slowing Kunkka anytime soon.
I AM THE FIRST SLOWPOKES
Bulldog said Kunkka's 25 talent change is a buff.
So.... GG
It's not surprising to see that the fleet is as effective as the tidebringer talent really. The opposing team could be hit by 3 ships, after all. That's a lot of damage and stuns with 1.4s escape time between. Paired with a Dark Seer that's a quick and dead team.
It's also not surprising to see the tidebringer talent go away, as the level of damage being applied is seen nowhere else in the game from that distance. There isn't really a fair answer to the damage being put out either, as it often came without warning, is on low cooldown (screws up blink daggers), and can even hit invisible units (potentially ruins silver edge initiations). And all he has to do is just get off AN auto attack.
In theory you could put out the same amount of damage in a fight now, but it dishes it out in smaller bursts more often. This at least provides opportunity to identify and address the situation.
The lvl 25 change for Kunkka makes him more of a fighter than a burst nuker. So going for that "one big hit" is not as appealing as before, but now you can get the aoe nuke with a 3,5 sec cd... And that is ridiculous too, but it probably gives the supports that 3,5 second window to do things instead of getting one shot, before going down with the second swipe.
Though, just played a game last week where I got one shot by Kunkka from 3k hp... And that is no fun... We still managed to win the game, but it was extremely frustrating to play against that. And it dragged along the game to 95 minutes. The dude bought 4 rapiers in the game and had 3 of them at one point in his inventory for quite some time. This is no-skill Dota, so they couldn't finish the game, they should have won at that point.
Got a question, "For example, Tidebringer applies its bonus damage on creep denies without expending a charge.". I didn't know it worked that way and I tested it in demo and it didn't seem to work. dealt on lvl 1 with tidebringer skilled once, more damage to enemy creeps (~70 without using the tidebringer and with q blade) than to my own (~50 again with q blade, which doesnt work on denies and with tidebringer being ready). Am I understanding smth wrong?
it is a buff for the pro scene and a nerf for pubs
It's demo mode. Go to demo terrain.
It's a buff:
Over 20 seconds you have 8 tidebringers instead of 5*1.5=7
Over 100 seconds it's 40 and 35.
The reduced cooldown also allows faster farming / better defense against mega creeps / more occasions for a crit on a tidebringer.
Also if the kunkka is lucky enough and gets 2 crits off in 5s he's dealing way more damage than a single crit in 4s. Sure you have time to react but it's much stronger in a teamfight late game.
You'll see a winrate discrepancy between both talents very rapidly in favor of the cooldown.
Ok,Let's see...Buff or nerf
GIVE ME BACK MY FREE 50% DAMAGE
I was very sad yesterday when I got to level 25 and saw the talent change cuz I had built the glass cannon build . After thinking on it I think I’ll just make some tangier items on kunkka so I can stand in a bit better to take advantage of the extra tide bringer hits . We will see how it goes .
So I did a lil math and building kunkka tankier I still crit for 1158 damage which still helps a lot in team fights even tho your not one shotting . Anyone try out kunkka as a 2nd tank for team like this building cuirass and heart ? Will have to rely on the Carry’s damage more at the end but I can see it helping team possible more because a lot of agility carries would appreciate having 2 front liners or atleast one if offlane isn’t tanky to let him do his thing but at the same time 1k crits is too much damage for enemy to ignore .
That first game I got so tilted seeing the change I actually threw the game playing like shit .
Overall huge nerf to blink crit kunkka lategame . Only way I can see this new talent being any good is if you stand in there and bang a bit allowing to to take advantage of lower cooldown .
Uhh, NO! Perfect time to nerf Kunkka. He was broken before pros were even playing him mid recently. The nerf wasn't enough though. I feel like you let him have the 25 talent, and instead nerf the base cleave of Tidebringer. That and nerf the dude's base strength. hes too tanky and hits too hard even in lane.
It has his lows if you already know the hero, honestly i play him a lot and i know how bad is for scaping or gettin caught. yet it is a great support / roam and as a mid lane works well too but u gotta be good. I do think is a little bit broken but just a little bit.
so is it a buff or a nerf??
Completly stupid Talent, because in the Lategame kunkka tidebringer Hits are depended from cooldowns like blink, SB or x-mark
I even think +50% would be Better if the Talent also would increase the cooldown to 10 secs... Nobody would care
How about level 25 talent increases cleave range by 50%. It would match the hero better than a cool down talent