i think its an ok build vlads makes up for the mana issues that would have been solved by battle fury and 80% attack speed means you will burn alot of mana still despite the lighting procs. tbh tho I hate vlads so i will never go this build the goal of am is to get 6 slotted and i feel like vlads isnt a good 6 slot item id rather just get a heart
You want to go that way benao ? Let's see how much do you know about anti-mage : you stand at a beautiful 35.71% win rate with 1.78 KDA ratio after 28 games. I guess you'll teach me about am...
Also to the guy screaming you can't jungle with mael/vlads, i suggest you try it before saying such bullshit. You don't jungle with a single roh because killing a fucking creep takes fucking ages and as you start with roh, you're probly going void stone and you don't farm jungle faster with that either.So in the end, you don't start jungling before you get the bf which is later th the mael/vlad.
The only thing RoH is handy, it's for trading some hits on low level laning phase. bf barely gives am the regen to clear a full jungle in a minute as he does once he got it + blink lvl 4 (which he should have get way earlier then bf)
Yeah, but way easier to get through itemization and low costs and easily accessible items
and why nobody would stack for am? whenever i'm pos 5 i try to stack some camp, you always end up with heroes with aoe and wanting to get some key items done quickly
keep ur idealistic 2k ways gonig im sure ull get somewhere
when items cost 500 more and dont have ring of health buildup in them theres no way you get them faster unless ur killing shit which is the whole point of that am route at which point im not getting the maelstrom pickup at all. vanguard is fine on am if u want to go that route but dont get caught in between bf and vang/vlad build
and stacks are just less effective on am than they would be on other heros because he takes up your entire jungle and probably some of the enemys jungle and ancients starting at min 11. so you could stack before then but it doesnt really benefit him that much because he already farms at an absurd pace. would rather give it to a mid laner or support so they can get a core item. at least in games where am isnt pressured super hard by counterpicks and or feed
bf allows you to clear any size wave/camp, only takes up one slot, has a ring of health buildup which is really good in lane, costs less, less splitpush but is much worse at fighting
I'm wondering how deeply retarded you are. Did you even read my posts ? Of course when you play at 5k MMR, you're going to have games when you can farm the shit out of the woods, with 4 mans team fighting up to create space for the carry. Of course you're going to get a quick bf and then flash farm the shit out of the game and crush the opponent around the 40 minute mark with your 6 slotted am.
I already stated all of that shit in my earlier posts as long as my explanation on how this build would only fits low mmr games because of the weird mentality there.
So yeah when you're 2k mmr, you can try all you want to farm the bf and farm the woods with it, 80% of the game you'll end up in a team with 4 carry with you, or support trying to last hit along with you. I've played years of wc3 dota, but if you want to talk down on me just because i started dota 2 3 month ago is fairly stupid.
As i said earlier, if you want to talk about optimals builds for high level dota, go on liquiddota. Dotabuffs has always been about pubs games and not only the top tier games
EDIT : i wonder how do you flash farm with a vanguard/vlad am as you deals barely no damage
>Maelstrom is just a cheap alternative for battle fury.
>i think its an ok build vlads makes up for the mana issues
>Also to the guy screaming you can't jungle with mael/vlads, i suggest you try it before saying such bullshit. You don't jungle with a single roh because killing a fucking creep takes fucking ages and as you start with roh, you're probly going void stone and you don't farm jungle faster with that either.So in the end, you don't start jungling before you get the bf which is later th the mael/vlad.
>The only thing RoH is handy, it's for trading some hits on low level laning phase. bf barely gives am the regen to clear a full jungle in a minute as he does once he got it + blink lvl 4 (which he should have get way earlier then bf)
honestly, this is the kind of shit that you trash kids can come up with?
Maelstrom is NOT a cheap alternative for battlefury on AM. It IS on other heroes that do not require the regen that battlefury provides. Why is maelstrom not a cheap alternative to battlefury? Because its not maelstrom vs battlefury, its maelstrom + VLADS vs battlefury.
You CANNOT jungle with just maelstrom because you do not have the mana regen or HP regen to keep ricing like this, and even with vlads, your mana regen is about ~1.6 less mana per second compared to battlefury at level 11 with a 1-4-1-1 build. Anyone who has ever played AM before, and by this I mean actually fucking farms with him will be well aware that even with battlefury you will run out of mana after a few minutes if you have the space to farm your jungle, and that is why vlads, in addition to being able to rosh and take ancients is a decent extension in games where you don't need to fight immediately.
What RoH allows you to do is to clear the small camp (and medium camp if you are on radiant, or dire if your lane is really bad). Your damage is actually decent if you have managed to pick up treads and have a QB too.
The notion that maelstrom + vlads has a better build up than battlefury is fucking absurd. Battlefury not only has a better build up, its also cheaper than maelstrom + vlads and is a much better item for AM.
If you want to fight with AM, then you do not build vlads first, and you certainly do not build maelstrom first. If you really wanted to you could get vanguard + yasha
"You CANNOT jungle with just maelstrom because you do not have the mana regen or HP regen to keep ricing like this, and even with vlads, your mana regen is about ~1.6 less mana per second compared to battlefury at level 11 with a 1-4-1-1 build. Anyone who has ever played AM before, and by this I mean actually fucking farms with him will be well aware that even with battlefury you will run out of mana after a few minutes if you have the space to farm your jungle, and that is why vlads, in addition to being able to rosh and take ancients is a decent extension in games where you don't need to fight immediately."
A treads + bf am lvl 11 can't do the jungle in a minute and start over because he doesn't have enough health regen. Also i wouldn't say a 1-4-1-1 is a standard build on antimage at lvl 11, it'd be at lvl 7 but there are not much people who skill stats before lvl 15. Also a vlad after bf ? I'd use those first minutes of free farm to get myself a tarrasque instead, and then start the abyssal/manta i want.
"The notion that maelstrom + vlads has a better build up than battlefury is fucking absurd. Battlefury not only has a better build up, its also cheaper than maelstrom + vlads and is a much better item for AM. "
Seriously learn to read, of course bf is a much better item for am, i've stated it many times already. But a better build up ? Come on, in what world an item where the cheapest component is at 875g got a better build up then 2 items where the cheapest component is at 200g ?
"If you want to fight with AM, then you do not build vlads first, and you certainly do not build maelstrom first. If you really wanted to you could get vanguard + yasha"
If you could disassemble vanguard, i'd maybe consider building this shit on am. But unless i'm fighting a brood/meepo/furion, and that nobody in my team will get crimson, i won't even consider that item on am. What are you going to achieve with that except ruining your future farm with the shitty impact am got in early game teamfights?
And for the tenth time, and also for the idiot who will post after me : yes maels build may be viable in low mmr games, and becomes more and more irrelevant the higher you gets. Yes the bf build is overall better then the mael builds and if you can go for it you should.
Hear me, there are somethings that make bf superior:
1. Early regen in form of ring of health. I don't know how do you suceed staying in lane, harrasing your opponent(s) out of the lane, exchanging hits with them (superior with your mana break, becouse often am is left solo versus the offlaner, becouse he is a good 1v1 hero). I don't think someone actually commented about this item. Ofcourse you can get something like a vlads early, but it delays your farming tool item (mael in this case) a lot.
2. Earlier farming tool. Sure maelstron is cheaper, but it doesn't give any form of regen. So if you actually wanted to farm efficienlty, again, you must have a vlads.
3. So much better farming tool. More DPS, cleave, mana + health regen, better split pushing item etc, etc. It will allow you get your bigger items faster than the maelstorm for sure.
4. Antimage is not a fighting hero. His strenghts is his fast farming. His fast farming is best gained with the battlefury as stated before. With his superfastfarming tools, he gains a lot of net worth advantage versus the opponents carry, allowing him to reck faces later in the game. I've had SO many games like so so much, i don't think there was a game where i played an antimage, and my team was actually winning the first 30 minutes. This leads to the ------->
5. Antimage is a great splitpusher and mind trouble making hero. After the 30 minutes of loosing, he can start pushing lanes fast, forcing rotations to defend, then he can tp back making the fight 4v5, 3v5 etc. etc.
I don't say that you can't open the map like this with maelstrom, its just that it delays his farm for so much, and timing in dota is the most important. Later in the game you can sell the bf for the mjolnir for the superior dps.
It is a unique attacking modifier when lightning procs so it would be considered a chance based attack modifier and would not generically have precedence over the mana break unless you proc'd.
It doesn't matter if maelstrom + vlads has easier build up or not because what you really need is regen to stay in lane an absorb harass. You aren't going to be able to push or clear jungle until you have items completed so why does it matter if you have like a bassy and an extra haste gloves in lane early? You aren't doing anything that uses mana or trying to deal dps now, just trying to last hit.
You need some sort of regen or you'll get pushed out of lane fast. Going vlads with a ring of regen first for 2 hp regen isn't enough. Nor is depending on lifesteal component which costs more than a ring of health and requires you to deal dmg to regen. It's somewhat suitable for a ranged hero to regen this way, not for a melee. So while vlads and then maelstrom has marginally easier buildup it has worse regen and lane sustain.
Let me try to explain here. When farming in lane it doesn't matter how much dmg you do because you do not want to push the lane, you want it to stay in a safe place somewhere in the middle so you can last hit and not get ganked. So why does it matter if you are slowly building maelstrom and vlads in pieces vs just buying larger components of battlefury? You aren't going to split off and clear entire jungle or push lane out until you get those items anyway so as long as you are not dying and losing gold constantly then it doesn't matter if you have maelstrom pieces before bfury pieces cus you aren't using either.
A quelling blade is all you need to get last hits in lane and then you need something that will allow you to stay in lane and deal with harass. That's what ring of health is for and sometimes a poor man's shield. And that's why some people will go vanguard for early fighting as well. It's not about dps at this point it's about lane sustain and getting those last hits.
And as a oh by the way, who would actually include mjollnir in the 6 slotted antimage build anyway? I'd prob go boots of travel, heart, manta, butterfly, abyssal, mkb. I guess if you need to rat you would drop mkb or butterfly (depends on enemy dodge) to keep battlefury or mjollnir but you will still clear waves freaking fast with all those items.
And for the tenth time, and also for the idiot who will post after me : yes maels build may be viable in low mmr games, and becomes more and more irrelevant the higher you gets. Yes the bf build is overall better then the mael builds and if you can go for it you should."
Thanks kord1g and timberwolf.
And also to clarify something which was a bit smarter then the usual comments on bf > mael :
"So why does it matter if you are slowly building maelstrom and vlads in pieces vs just buying larger components of battlefury"
The gold loss on death is everything. If you get ganked while building mael/vlads, you can manage to spend your unreliable gold while you rarely can with the bf.
For all the other comments, i'm too lazy to repeat myself in every posts, please just read the topic you're answering to. Thanks skolder for the only commentary on topic, and i agree with you. But i'm not intending to have a fighting build, i want more of a polyvalent build. Because in low mmr games, people will go nuts if you don't participate in the teamfights, and will start throwing if you keep farming. So i wanted something less useless then a bf in a fight, but i didn't want to slow to much the farm.
Recently, i saw w33 playing am and going treads/urn/manta/basher. I wish i could have seen the whole game to analyze a bit his early game.
@Ego
Calm your tits bro. It's easy to farm the jungle with am with just battlefury and treads, just bring a salve and you will have your vlad right after.... You can also fight with just bf and treads just need to be smart which a 2k can't possibly be ( 4k are no better btw )
You talk about gold loss... how can you die with a blink?
You also talked how easy it is in 5k to get farm cause support will make space for you... You may have good teamates on your team but the ennemy team is smart too and will do their best to shut you down. For exemple, a safe lane storm rushing a 9 min orchid.
You also talked about how your allies won't stack for you. You can stack for yourself while farming the lane but then again 2k won't understand that. Oh and fyi I played a few 2k 3k games while I queued with friends that are 1k. They tried to outlast hit me but couldn't. Why? You guys can't last hit. So stop finding excuses and just get better.
Maelstrom is just a cheap alternative for battle fury. You should go for standart build after you get maelstrom, not rush mjolnir.
i think its an ok build vlads makes up for the mana issues that would have been solved by battle fury and 80% attack speed means you will burn alot of mana still despite the lighting procs. tbh tho I hate vlads so i will never go this build the goal of am is to get 6 slotted and i feel like vlads isnt a good 6 slot item id rather just get a heart
normal skill people should play more and talk less
You want to go that way benao ? Let's see how much do you know about anti-mage : you stand at a beautiful 35.71% win rate with 1.78 KDA ratio after 28 games. I guess you'll teach me about am...
Also to the guy screaming you can't jungle with mael/vlads, i suggest you try it before saying such bullshit. You don't jungle with a single roh because killing a fucking creep takes fucking ages and as you start with roh, you're probly going void stone and you don't farm jungle faster with that either.So in the end, you don't start jungling before you get the bf which is later th the mael/vlad.
The only thing RoH is handy, it's for trading some hits on low level laning phase. bf barely gives am the regen to clear a full jungle in a minute as he does once he got it + blink lvl 4 (which he should have get way earlier then bf)
"you don't start jungling before you get the bf which is later th the mael/vlad."
bf costs less than mael vlad
nobody really helps the antimage with stacking at any level anyway why give antimage a stack when he can go farm enemy woods and give stack to team
"bf costs less than mael vlad"
Yeah, but way easier to get through itemization and low costs and easily accessible items
and why nobody would stack for am? whenever i'm pos 5 i try to stack some camp, you always end up with heroes with aoe and wanting to get some key items done quickly
keep ur idealistic 2k ways gonig im sure ull get somewhere
when items cost 500 more and dont have ring of health buildup in them theres no way you get them faster unless ur killing shit which is the whole point of that am route at which point im not getting the maelstrom pickup at all. vanguard is fine on am if u want to go that route but dont get caught in between bf and vang/vlad build
and stacks are just less effective on am than they would be on other heros because he takes up your entire jungle and probably some of the enemys jungle and ancients starting at min 11. so you could stack before then but it doesnt really benefit him that much because he already farms at an absurd pace. would rather give it to a mid laner or support so they can get a core item. at least in games where am isnt pressured super hard by counterpicks and or feed
bf allows you to clear any size wave/camp, only takes up one slot, has a ring of health buildup which is really good in lane, costs less, less splitpush but is much worse at fighting
I'm wondering how deeply retarded you are. Did you even read my posts ? Of course when you play at 5k MMR, you're going to have games when you can farm the shit out of the woods, with 4 mans team fighting up to create space for the carry. Of course you're going to get a quick bf and then flash farm the shit out of the game and crush the opponent around the 40 minute mark with your 6 slotted am.
I already stated all of that shit in my earlier posts as long as my explanation on how this build would only fits low mmr games because of the weird mentality there.
So yeah when you're 2k mmr, you can try all you want to farm the bf and farm the woods with it, 80% of the game you'll end up in a team with 4 carry with you, or support trying to last hit along with you. I've played years of wc3 dota, but if you want to talk down on me just because i started dota 2 3 month ago is fairly stupid.
As i said earlier, if you want to talk about optimals builds for high level dota, go on liquiddota. Dotabuffs has always been about pubs games and not only the top tier games
EDIT : i wonder how do you flash farm with a vanguard/vlad am as you deals barely no damage
EDIT 2 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zCevFP4XXLA#t=1322
Yeah i can see i'm stubborn 2k retard with shit ideas that would only work in normal skill games. fucking idiot.
>Maelstrom is just a cheap alternative for battle fury.
>i think its an ok build vlads makes up for the mana issues
>Also to the guy screaming you can't jungle with mael/vlads, i suggest you try it before saying such bullshit. You don't jungle with a single roh because killing a fucking creep takes fucking ages and as you start with roh, you're probly going void stone and you don't farm jungle faster with that either.So in the end, you don't start jungling before you get the bf which is later th the mael/vlad.
>The only thing RoH is handy, it's for trading some hits on low level laning phase. bf barely gives am the regen to clear a full jungle in a minute as he does once he got it + blink lvl 4 (which he should have get way earlier then bf)
honestly, this is the kind of shit that you trash kids can come up with?
Maelstrom is NOT a cheap alternative for battlefury on AM. It IS on other heroes that do not require the regen that battlefury provides. Why is maelstrom not a cheap alternative to battlefury? Because its not maelstrom vs battlefury, its maelstrom + VLADS vs battlefury.
You CANNOT jungle with just maelstrom because you do not have the mana regen or HP regen to keep ricing like this, and even with vlads, your mana regen is about ~1.6 less mana per second compared to battlefury at level 11 with a 1-4-1-1 build. Anyone who has ever played AM before, and by this I mean actually fucking farms with him will be well aware that even with battlefury you will run out of mana after a few minutes if you have the space to farm your jungle, and that is why vlads, in addition to being able to rosh and take ancients is a decent extension in games where you don't need to fight immediately.
What RoH allows you to do is to clear the small camp (and medium camp if you are on radiant, or dire if your lane is really bad). Your damage is actually decent if you have managed to pick up treads and have a QB too.
The notion that maelstrom + vlads has a better build up than battlefury is fucking absurd. Battlefury not only has a better build up, its also cheaper than maelstrom + vlads and is a much better item for AM.
If you want to fight with AM, then you do not build vlads first, and you certainly do not build maelstrom first. If you really wanted to you could get vanguard + yasha
"You CANNOT jungle with just maelstrom because you do not have the mana regen or HP regen to keep ricing like this, and even with vlads, your mana regen is about ~1.6 less mana per second compared to battlefury at level 11 with a 1-4-1-1 build. Anyone who has ever played AM before, and by this I mean actually fucking farms with him will be well aware that even with battlefury you will run out of mana after a few minutes if you have the space to farm your jungle, and that is why vlads, in addition to being able to rosh and take ancients is a decent extension in games where you don't need to fight immediately."
A treads + bf am lvl 11 can't do the jungle in a minute and start over because he doesn't have enough health regen. Also i wouldn't say a 1-4-1-1 is a standard build on antimage at lvl 11, it'd be at lvl 7 but there are not much people who skill stats before lvl 15. Also a vlad after bf ? I'd use those first minutes of free farm to get myself a tarrasque instead, and then start the abyssal/manta i want.
"The notion that maelstrom + vlads has a better build up than battlefury is fucking absurd. Battlefury not only has a better build up, its also cheaper than maelstrom + vlads and is a much better item for AM. "
Seriously learn to read, of course bf is a much better item for am, i've stated it many times already. But a better build up ? Come on, in what world an item where the cheapest component is at 875g got a better build up then 2 items where the cheapest component is at 200g ?
"If you want to fight with AM, then you do not build vlads first, and you certainly do not build maelstrom first. If you really wanted to you could get vanguard + yasha"
If you could disassemble vanguard, i'd maybe consider building this shit on am. But unless i'm fighting a brood/meepo/furion, and that nobody in my team will get crimson, i won't even consider that item on am. What are you going to achieve with that except ruining your future farm with the shitty impact am got in early game teamfights?
And for the tenth time, and also for the idiot who will post after me : yes maels build may be viable in low mmr games, and becomes more and more irrelevant the higher you gets. Yes the bf build is overall better then the mael builds and if you can go for it you should.
A good fighting build for AM is something that offers him hp and damage, I'd say treads + urn + SnY is a bit better.
You know kuro went mael + vlads in pro games. It worked pretty well
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1019418516
Maelstrom is a unique attack modifier, and Mana Break is a unique attack modifier. You can not use both.
^ wow man you're right! how didn't we notice this??? close thread pls
Hear me, there are somethings that make bf superior:
1. Early regen in form of ring of health. I don't know how do you suceed staying in lane, harrasing your opponent(s) out of the lane, exchanging hits with them (superior with your mana break, becouse often am is left solo versus the offlaner, becouse he is a good 1v1 hero). I don't think someone actually commented about this item. Ofcourse you can get something like a vlads early, but it delays your farming tool item (mael in this case) a lot.
2. Earlier farming tool. Sure maelstron is cheaper, but it doesn't give any form of regen. So if you actually wanted to farm efficienlty, again, you must have a vlads.
3. So much better farming tool. More DPS, cleave, mana + health regen, better split pushing item etc, etc. It will allow you get your bigger items faster than the maelstorm for sure.
4. Antimage is not a fighting hero. His strenghts is his fast farming. His fast farming is best gained with the battlefury as stated before. With his superfastfarming tools, he gains a lot of net worth advantage versus the opponents carry, allowing him to reck faces later in the game. I've had SO many games like so so much, i don't think there was a game where i played an antimage, and my team was actually winning the first 30 minutes. This leads to the ------->
5. Antimage is a great splitpusher and mind trouble making hero. After the 30 minutes of loosing, he can start pushing lanes fast, forcing rotations to defend, then he can tp back making the fight 4v5, 3v5 etc. etc.
I don't say that you can't open the map like this with maelstrom, its just that it delays his farm for so much, and timing in dota is the most important. Later in the game you can sell the bf for the mjolnir for the superior dps.
"Maelstrom is a unique attack modifier, and Mana Break is a unique attack modifier. You can not use both."
... wow.. Typical "normal skill" guy
It is a unique attacking modifier when lightning procs so it would be considered a chance based attack modifier and would not generically have precedence over the mana break unless you proc'd.
It doesn't matter if maelstrom + vlads has easier build up or not because what you really need is regen to stay in lane an absorb harass. You aren't going to be able to push or clear jungle until you have items completed so why does it matter if you have like a bassy and an extra haste gloves in lane early? You aren't doing anything that uses mana or trying to deal dps now, just trying to last hit.
You need some sort of regen or you'll get pushed out of lane fast. Going vlads with a ring of regen first for 2 hp regen isn't enough. Nor is depending on lifesteal component which costs more than a ring of health and requires you to deal dmg to regen. It's somewhat suitable for a ranged hero to regen this way, not for a melee. So while vlads and then maelstrom has marginally easier buildup it has worse regen and lane sustain.
Let me try to explain here. When farming in lane it doesn't matter how much dmg you do because you do not want to push the lane, you want it to stay in a safe place somewhere in the middle so you can last hit and not get ganked. So why does it matter if you are slowly building maelstrom and vlads in pieces vs just buying larger components of battlefury? You aren't going to split off and clear entire jungle or push lane out until you get those items anyway so as long as you are not dying and losing gold constantly then it doesn't matter if you have maelstrom pieces before bfury pieces cus you aren't using either.
A quelling blade is all you need to get last hits in lane and then you need something that will allow you to stay in lane and deal with harass. That's what ring of health is for and sometimes a poor man's shield. And that's why some people will go vanguard for early fighting as well. It's not about dps at this point it's about lane sustain and getting those last hits.
And as a oh by the way, who would actually include mjollnir in the 6 slotted antimage build anyway? I'd prob go boots of travel, heart, manta, butterfly, abyssal, mkb. I guess if you need to rat you would drop mkb or butterfly (depends on enemy dodge) to keep battlefury or mjollnir but you will still clear waves freaking fast with all those items.
"ego
a day ago
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delete
And for the tenth time, and also for the idiot who will post after me : yes maels build may be viable in low mmr games, and becomes more and more irrelevant the higher you gets. Yes the bf build is overall better then the mael builds and if you can go for it you should."
Thanks kord1g and timberwolf.
And also to clarify something which was a bit smarter then the usual comments on bf > mael :
"So why does it matter if you are slowly building maelstrom and vlads in pieces vs just buying larger components of battlefury"
The gold loss on death is everything. If you get ganked while building mael/vlads, you can manage to spend your unreliable gold while you rarely can with the bf.
For all the other comments, i'm too lazy to repeat myself in every posts, please just read the topic you're answering to. Thanks skolder for the only commentary on topic, and i agree with you. But i'm not intending to have a fighting build, i want more of a polyvalent build. Because in low mmr games, people will go nuts if you don't participate in the teamfights, and will start throwing if you keep farming. So i wanted something less useless then a bf in a fight, but i didn't want to slow to much the farm.
Recently, i saw w33 playing am and going treads/urn/manta/basher. I wish i could have seen the whole game to analyze a bit his early game.
@Ego
Calm your tits bro. It's easy to farm the jungle with am with just battlefury and treads, just bring a salve and you will have your vlad right after.... You can also fight with just bf and treads just need to be smart which a 2k can't possibly be ( 4k are no better btw )
You talk about gold loss... how can you die with a blink?
You also talked how easy it is in 5k to get farm cause support will make space for you... You may have good teamates on your team but the ennemy team is smart too and will do their best to shut you down. For exemple, a safe lane storm rushing a 9 min orchid.
You also talked about how your allies won't stack for you. You can stack for yourself while farming the lane but then again 2k won't understand that. Oh and fyi I played a few 2k 3k games while I queued with friends that are 1k. They tried to outlast hit me but couldn't. Why? You guys can't last hit. So stop finding excuses and just get better.
Tho I like the idea of maelstrom + vlad.
Bf simply better than mjolnir sht ez peezy .... what dont you understand?