Definitely, Medusa will not win in a solo fight vs a spectre but then dota 2 is a team fight game, so that doesn't matter. I'm still wondering who is a harder carry though, because they do seem in the same league.
simple question but hard to answer, but i would say medusa since he can melt down of people without a duration(using split shot) unlike spec who needs her ult. but i dont know since spec can carry diffusal which will effectively hurt dusa. bt goddamit medusa is a good rapier carrier
Teamfight wise, Medusa is stronger by a mile. Spectre is better at dealing with a split-push. 1v1 fight, actually, depends on builds. Default Manta/Diffusal/Radiance Spectre can't manfight Medusa. You'll need something like Abyssal and Satanic against her.
@Benao
Spectre IS a hardcarry. One of the hardest at that. She has great EHP, global presense and very good scaling AoE damage. The most popular build, which is focused on her illusions, isn't the hardest one.
"Who is scarier late game if they go up against each other in late team fights?"
what ?
1v1 late team fights ? what is that ?
Yes, they have much lesser team-fight presence and more obvious counters. Void is great in 1v1s, and does has an OP ass ulti, but aside from that ulti he's just above average one-target damage dealer. And people tend to try to counter his ulti.
PA has great dps and EHP early, but she can be heavily countered.
They both require specific setups to wreck the whole enemy team, and these setups are known and, again, could be countered. On the other hand, they both have better tools for the early game.
I think I'm going to go with Medusa as the harder carry, she has a bkb piercing ultimate. Spectre skills don't go through bkb, even so late game bkbs only last 5 seconds.
Spectre is much more a hard carry than dusa.
Dusa can be easily kited, and is easy to disable, not to mention that dusa barely do any damage, unless having rapier.
Dusa is a tank.
A hard carry is able to deal with split push and to fuck opponent 1v1, while having such a great scalling that he teamfight nicely when he has a lot of stuff
I don't think spectre is a much more hard carry than Medusa
Well yes Medusa will lose 1v1 and is terrible at dealing with split push (so as many other hard carries) but you got to take into account she has a ranged aoe attack, bkb piercing ulti, she's not really easy to kite if you time your ulti correctly. She has no damage? 5 arrows hitting 5 heroes is alot of damage.
She is really shit early game though.
you can push 2 other lane, and take building faster than her.
hard carry are rarelly out dpsed (apart from tiny on building and mb lone druid) And even if spectre is out dpsed for that part, he can defend and thus slow down opponent, or totally 1v5 lategame, while medusa cann't.
But yeah, there's no linear progression from semi carry, carry, hard carry, hyper carry.
Spectre is between carry and hypercarry.
Medusa is just a tank, eventually a carry.
And definitly not a hard carry. Hard carry are strong in mega late game, medusa can be killed in a blink of an eye in mega late game, and her only streng is her tanking power....
I would still suggest to go medusa against spectre though ^^
Cause you clean illu in teamfight with ult, and especially cause you can make a triple offensiv against spectre with your medusa. So you ruin spectre's early, get decent on medusa, and spectre cann't recover :)
Spectre farms slower but needs way less items to be useful. Early on it's Spectre, way late game it's Spectre, only time it isn't Spectre is if Medusa gets out to an outstanding start.
Of course this is kind of a silly question because more than most matchups it depends on their teammates. I would pick Spectre most games.
As for the poster that said Void / Spectre > PA: No. They fulfill different roles, but PA is among the best counters to Spectre. Hero gets lifesteal, has high DPS, and is a strong BKB candidate. If they're within 100 gpm of eachother the PA is winning that matchup.
instead of pa being counter to spectre, i would say any hero with armor reduction counters agility heroes. slardar does this very well.
I think they both works well against each other because Spectire is a good Diffusal hero which counters Medusa but Medusa's ulti and splitshot are really good against illusions. Still, in a 1v1 fight i would always give the edge to illusion heroes and especially spectre because Dispersion is ridicolous.
The only hero that actually competes with Spectre lategame is Naga in my opinion.
@Matrice
I do not agree with you about Medusa. Pretty much every carry becomes less and less relevant in the "ultra late" game, when he loses XP and item advantage over supports. Medusa is a one of the few, who still remains extremely scary. And while she doesn't excels at split-pushing herself, she isn't half-bad at countering it via attack-clicking on the enemy base. If someone decides to "push two other lanes" in the meantime, she could have her whole team except herself TP to a one of these lanes, kill stuff, proceed to defending second; while reverse of this trick will not work against Medusa.
Also, Medusa going her default build has more than twice EHP than Void or Spectre going theirs. Her solo-target damage is about 25% lower, but her AoE damage is more than 3 times higher.
And I think, Medusa is the only hero, who actually should go DR. She is the best carrier of the Rapier in the game, while other damage items are sub-optimal for her due to their iteration with Split Shot. Even the "we need to burst this hero down and get DR" factor works for you, because it's kinda hard to burst down 25k EHP, no matter how far the game has gone.
spectres not a great ultra late game carry, keep in mind that its not all about teamfighting. spectres damage really tapers off after his first 2-3 items (Radiance, manta, heart), more items dont really help his damage, refreshers good but if you're talking ultra late game supports wont be 900 hp supports anymore, they'll have 2k hp. basically you have to get refresher heart radiance manta bkb bot but he doesnt do nearly enough damage
i would take medusa in a heartbeat because its impossible to fight into her, meaning you can just high ground push and most of the time theres no way for the other team to deal with it, especially if the team comp around her is super 4 protect 1 which will always be the one jumping on you or be able to counter initiate if you go on medusa.
theres like 10 carries i would take over spectre because spectres melee, really immobile, and doesnt have super scalable damage late game. people seem to think that spectres the hardest late game carry but hes really just a late game carry, not an ultra late game carry. surprisingly antimage is really strong ultralate with his blink, weaver with shukuchi, void w/ double chrono, terrorblade with splitpush, naga with splitpush, medusa being unkillable and doing crazy damage lategame, gyro with flak, tinker with permahex and bot, sniper with range, morph does a bit of everything, doom with doom
theres a lot of heros i would rather have than spectre ultralate, but late game spectres fine
I think Medusa would win in the late game teamfight if it's a teamfight. Medusa is good because the amount of damage she can do to multiple heroes not just one. If you only want to kill one hero go Pa or something. So...Medusa is scarier late game. I do shit my pants when I'm a poor support and a spectre comes at me though :c.
idk about the AoE damage argument
medusa does aoe damage, yes, but so does spectre. Dispersion + rad isn't a joke m8
@Satellizer
Spectre's AoE is 25% of her HP at best + Radiance burn. Radiance is a bad late-game item, even for Spectre.
Medusa's AoE is her right-click.
You can't really say "but so does Spectre", because no, she doesn't do nearly as "so".
that's why spectre is not a hard carry, but something between a carry, and a hypercarry (since against some lineup you can really make 1v5).
And medusa is good when enemy hard carry is not full stuff, if it is full, she just melt
I SAID AGES AGO (CHECK POSTS) THAT SPECTRE WASNT A HARDCARRY AND EVERYONE FUCKING LAUGHED, SAME REASON I CONCLUDED DUSA WAS BETTER BUT THEN AGAIN EVERYONE LAUGHED AND YOU KEPT POSTING SHIT ABOUT SPECTRE EVEN THOUGH YOU LATER SAID DUSA WAS BEST BUT IT ALL GOES BACK TO MY FIRST 2 SENTENCES!!!!!
all this fucking discussion in vain, just learn to accept shit ffs
we could argue the same about pa, since she actually deal then no damage, cause she cann't reach a bkbed target :p
But this arguement is not about PA is it?
In my humble opinion, Medusa should be better in a 5v5 as well as a 1v1 situation cuz EHP op
Medusa has a 281.6% increase in EHP against physical damage and a 266.6% increase in EHP against magical damage.
blink dagger pa new meta
and theres like 15-20 heros id rather have lategame than spectre, heck id even take aghanims timber over spectre...
potentially leshrac as well
Spectre can't handle lategame aswell as Dusa.
In my opinion, Dusa has spells better then Spec, and shes a ranged hero.
She can merge with other heroes better then Spec, resulting in higher impact.
Her build inacludes better set of items, aswell.
Spec is momentum~kind of carry, she gets out of control by leting her pick~up enemy mistakes.
Dusa is true definition of sub carry category~hard one.
Like a timebomb. 😊
pretty sure antimage is a much better time bomb as opposed to medusa. theres ways to build her pretty effectively for the midgame. shes crazy strong mid game in drow strats as well.
i said that because you said dusa is true definition of "sub carry category~hard one. Like a timebomb" so i just interpreted that to mean hard carry/timebomb. so im saying shes not the true definition of a timebomb, antimage or GG alch or something would be better
You are right, but comaring Dusa and Spec, you can't say I'm wrong. She is time~bomb compared to Spec.
@Benao
Diffusal, Manta, Radiance Spectre isn't a hardcarry, but get her adequate items and she becomes hard as fuck. It's about hero, not about default build.
@Matrice
Who then in your definition is a true hardcarry? I do remember myself winning against carries who were ahead in networth, but do not remember myself losing in the opposite situation.
Hyper carry : can win encounter 1v5 at some point. They are more or less all dead due to nerf and/or to "new" item such as forcestaff/halberd.
Some carry becomes hyper carry in certain matchup (like spectre).
Hard carry : Deal huge amount of damage, win every 1v1 encounter (unless against an other hard carry -can win a 1v1 encounter against hyper carry due to high mobility-). They usually are pretty bad in 5 men fights, but end doing fine due to awesome scalling late game. THOSE HEROES ALWAYS GROW STRONGER when the game drag to ultra late. (heroes like morphling, tb, ck)
Carry: Those heroes (often mistaken for hard carry, because they are much stronger than semi carry -and a lot of semi carry are called carry...-) get some peak in power at some point and then will decrease in power later in game.
Heroes such as anti mage, pa, alchemist, weaver, spectre, naix etc....
Semi carry: Those heroes are making better than most with item, but they don't have both HUGE steroid and HUGE mobility.
(for example razor/potm).
Note that there's no linear progression between those 4 class (or mb just between semi carry and carry).
Spectre, his damage gets big much faster than Medusa, who even with a certain pack of items may not be a threat at all.
He is more dangerous than Medusa as well because os his ultimate, in a teamfight he can create as much opportunities as Medusa, like spotting the enemy in a crucial formation.
@Matrice
I fail to see, how will, for example, TB will "always grow stronger", when he's losing his networth advantage. It looks more like you've grouped heroes who can splitpush via illusions, not the ones with extremely good late-game.
And I really don't get how doesn't Medusa grow stronger in the ultra-late, when she has only one skill without insane scaling, and even this skill has power of a weak ultimate, without being one.
PS Why in the world you people keep calling Medusa and Spectre "he"?!
ultra late honestly all that matters is three things: mobility, lockdown and wave clear in that order.
i played quite a few ultra late games recently
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1076683929
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1074299612
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1033775754
and what i feel is that as a carry what you can do boils down to those three things. you are forced to buy items to compensate for what you dont have, e.g. Slark has good mobility and can have decent wave clear with Mjollnir, decent lockdown with Abyssal + Hex. Ember has great mobility, wave clear but lacks lockdown; this isn't an issue for him however.
Medusa has wave clear but that's about it. She lacks mobility and her abilities doesn't really let her make up for it - at most she can get BoTs and Refresher to get around the map. She cannot initiate any pickoffs at all and is forced to wait for the enemy team to come to her since a game going ultra late means at least one team is actively looking to avoid a 5v5 clash. Even if you build her for lockdown she lacks the mobility make use of it - what use is a hex without a Blink to go in? And if she uses two slots for that I can guarantee you she doesn't have the damage to burst down most targets ultra late.
Spectre has pseudo-mobility, in that s(he) can be always relevant to a fight. But s(he)'s bad at initiating fights at all, and has no lockdown or pushing abilities.
Honestly, if a game were to go that late, Slark, Ember, Zeus etc are better heroes in general.
abysal dusa is legit though, overwhelm into gaze is nearly guaranteed stone form
blink dusa isnt too out of the question too
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Simple question, who is a harder carry Spectre or Medusa? Who is scarier late game if they go up against each other in late team fights? Thanks.