General DiscussionMidas on supports

I personally never tried it. Too busy warding, upgrading courier, getting dust and all that >.>

if you get it on supports i don't see why not get it on every hero ever

rly boring trend, gotta stop asap, most of the time ppl pick cm im like cool we have a cm, then the guy afk jungle until midas 0supporting 0 ganks 0impact.

The only support I've seen with Midas which didn't escalate in his team losing horribly is Warlock.

I've done it once with CM back before it was cool, although the match was in Normal bracket (back when we knew about this) and it's only purpose was transmuting BM's Necro warrior...back when they could be transmuted.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/171438596

Doesn't work very well in pubs unless your team has gigantic advantage. They do this in competitive because of high teamplay and knowing how to manage the game and not exposing too much. Midas is viable for supports now because of the increase in natural gold income, and the bonus XPM is awesome. Besides, with Midas it's possible to get luxury items in late game that have huge impact such as sheepstick. Since the beginning of the "midas gaming" we've seen sheep CMs, Linkens+Refresher Shakers and so on.

I've done it yesterday, game was easy so ~10 minute midas = 454 GPM and 494 XPM CM, pretty decent. http://dotabuff.com/matches/415047921

seriously overrated item on supports

Midas Doto, best Doto.

It works if you have 2 supports in your team and game looks like it'll be late game. One support buying wards, courier and second going midas. Second support should have strong nuke and he going midas because he need level advantage for example: Lina, Lion, Crystal Maiden, AA etc. Also second support should go mekansm after midas.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/411560373

better buy meka or forcestaff

@ Winterchillz

There is a 4 and a 5 role on the team. One ofcourse will be buying wards and courier, tp's for carries and what not. Midas allows wards to be on permanent cd as you always have gold. It also allows you to catch up in levels where as you have been missing lane exp by warding, dewarding, ganking, rotates.

I think if you can keep observers on cd, up courier, and get it before 17 min, it's alright on supports. Grab your boots. Get midas first, or if you "accidentally" get a kill or two in lane you can get it then (Boots first obviously.)

Pros:

> Allows you to keep up in level/farm with carries with little of either
> Allows you to up stronger mid-late game items.

Cons:

> People get it regardless of how the game is going
> Slows down early game farm when a support is most effective
> Can give supports the "farming" mindset and they can end up being shit all game

I think there is a time and place for all items. Sometimes you may find yourself 8mins in with a shed load of gold and it might be viable. Other times not so much.

http://dotabuff.com/players/90503334/matches?game_mode=&hero=crystal-maiden&match_type=real

Consider the above, I play a lot of support maiden. With the midas games it doesn't seem to have impacted the scores or visibly make a huge difference on my individual KDA. While I have more items I don't feel it is so needed.

Other heroes it can be beneficial e.g. Warlock

http://dotabuff.com/matches/239143658
http://dotabuff.com/matches/359827139

There was a time I had decided that Treant was one of those heroes that needed a Midas to help him up items and not just be heal bitch....this was 6 months ago http://dotabuff.com/matches/211607388

Again, using your brain helps when it comes to matters or yes or no.

It does work if the game is on a stalemate and nobody is pushing or fighting:

http://dotabuff.com/matches/400857402

midas on support is fine, as long as they ward. But if they are using it to get luxury items such as dagon and forcestaff, then no.

智子 likes wards,

don't act like you've never been in a pub :D You perfectly know that in probably 95% of the time, the support is the last pick by the person who just doesn't want to have 5 man carry and usually on one is really helping you with any support stuff.

^ This describes roughly 30% of my support games.

the problem with it in pubs is you are weak alone for a long period of the early game. In real matches your teammates will have your back with TPs if the other team dives you but in pubs you might get 1 TP if you are lucky so having no items early on can make you feed in a pub.

^ that tp only come if you play stack.. solo que support no one will tp.. and when they got gank they ask for tp.. and blame support for late tp or didnt tp

@ Winter,

I only play support roles, I'm just tryin to figure out when I can work it in, or if it's possible every game. I ward, dust, smoke, cour, etc all me. Usually the only support, but I first pick my support every game usually. Just so I get a choice out of everything and I'm not limited to supports I don't like.

its a moderate risk high reward build. Just remember your team fight items will be coming alot later because of it and you could lose the game because the other team is ready for early game team fights/push

^ Thanks.

How late is too late?

It's never too late for midas!

you just need to try it out and see. Really you just need experience to figure out when a team is going to push early/teamfight early

midas on support is definitely cool. but should be bought AFTER the first big item like mek.
If you are the only support in your team. don't midas.

See my last 5 games (4 ppl stack). In every games, supports bought midas :D.
When we won. midas ok. when we lose, support midas is the main reason

C A N C E R

Midas on a support hero is good only in a very specific circumstance. That is...

[1] Your teams heroes will win late game.

[2] You have the gold from pushing towers and kills and already got the wards.

[3] You are still low level so the extra XP will really matter.

If these 3 things are true, then its time for support midas. Supports effectiveness is often strongly tied to their level. You can reach those levels several minutes earlier with a midas. If you are already level 11 its too late to get midas. If you happen to come into a large amount of gold later in the game think about fstaff, ghost, rod of aui2000, necro or saving up for a hex.

If you get a first blood on cm, lina or lion consider it. Otherwise probably not a good idea.

Thanks for the comments everyone. Trying to find time to play these days, I've been busy with the holidays is all.

if u buy midas on a support ur either dumb or facing idiots

http://dotabuff.com/matches/395604476 just don't be like these retards then it's okay.

@ Sam, nah. It allows me to put wards and sents on a permanent cooldown. I would most likely still be wearing brown boots and working towards some escape item like slide stick or drums. I normally run a 4 ish role.

Midas costs 1900 gold... It is said to not be worth buying on CARRIES after about 12 - 13 mins - maybe even earlier. After reading the posts above I still do not think that any supports should get it. Warlock is literally the only case I saw where it worked well and it is so he can have four golems.

Midas on supports is not a good idea almost every time - Therefore not a good idea.

I see a lot of omniknights and cm's getting it and trying to carry- cm kill stealing with nukes and omni just being all around dumb pusher, building dmg items over support items.

@GIMME_THE_L00T

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtnO9NFzIWY

I believe there are situations where it's viable. Even after the time role where most carries wont buy midas. With a chen or something on the 5 role or some other pusher, if you can drop a tower early and support during two kills. Assuming the kills are both 2v1 (Best ratio of gold and exp) You can have some extra gold with wards on cd. Dk and a few other teams are using it. Phase or not I can't agree with what "Gimme_The_Loot" is saying at all. If any hero snowballs or gets farm fast enough I believe midas is good. Even after what I believe is "This carry better not buy a midas, 7 minutes has passed" is the carry limit, I think supports can still benefit from it at the 13-16 min mark.

Assume it is crystal maiden. You can just frost bite the hard camp creep on dire side a few times, (Besides satyr) and make a few extra gold like so. As long as you don't die 5 times in lane I think it's viable. I'm pretty sure anything more than a single death would kill the strategy.

Also, I'm not attempting or planning to troll or carry with the midas, just using it to draw back the levels I get from rotates / warding and leaving lane, as well as putting wards "always on cooldown".

I think someone at DHW said it best, when you buy midas you are making a decision - that decision comes down to "will buying this midas make me lose the next fight?"
if the answer is no, and you make a safe transistion to your next item, and the next fight goes well, it was a good decision, and in winning the fight you will have both made up the ground you lost buying the midas. If you lose the fight because of the midas, and because you lost that fight you lose the next fight, and barely transition into your next item, it was a bad decision to get midas.

Midas on CM is quite popular because as soon as she has boots, she pretty much has everything she needs for the early-mid game. she already has quite a long range of initiation with nova, and frostbite can stop someone attacking her. Having force staff or ghost will help, but not as much as on other heroes. However, it is a decision, if you are vs a puck, or am and you have someone like bane or dk, being able to force staff them into stun/grip range from fog, force staff may be a far better item choice than midas. The am will farm far more than you anyway, and stopping the puck snowballing will be far more important than simply having midas.

Here;s a game where a keeper of the light got a midas and farmed all game, when it came down to lategame, he still died in two hits, spending his 25k net worth on dying in 2 hits instead of one (even before drow bought two rapiers when we had megas) http://dotabuff.com/matches/414944778
By the time he had midas mek sheepstick shadowblade, the ganking phase was over, and while it helped his side in team fights, dk and drow had had enough free room to farm up far more than he could. If he had gone for items that could have helped his team in ganks, or even just helping run down a hero with mana drain instead of farming, they probably would have won. (it was a very close game anyway, they had 50 kills to our 25 at one point which might explain why he went skaadi instead of eblade which i think would have been a better choice)

I think midas on supports is more about team composition and team play style.

If i remember correctly, {EDIT: thanks for the correction krkshka} LGD.INT started doing it, and thats because they always dominate the shit out of the early game but have a tendency to fall off late, and this was a way for them to give bigger impact to their support heroes like CM.

And midas on support is never just about money, its about maintaining level advantage during the mid game.

its a niche thing that became flavor of the month.

Thank you for these flavorful replies. I'm just attempting to progress as a player and you guys are flooding my knowledge pool, I love it. ^^

buy midas on all heroes any time of the game.

@Concede: LGD.int was actually the team that started the midas craze in 6.79.

I love Vaikiss' posts.

Usually we lose every game where my supports get midas instead of wards, because we have no vision, the supports don't know how to TP, and the enemy invis heroes become invulnerable because we have no detection. I end up buying everything as carry (observers, sentries, dust, mek, Sheepstick, force staff, pt, etc) but it's really not enjoying. It makes games extremely hard and difficult.

that's the downside for the midas trending. You can't rely on pub supports.

i use midas in any role why? more gold more exp midas early item think of it every 1min u farm 190 gold +creeping or killing hero and asst and towers
http://dotabuff.com/matches/415231457

Wow, the forum has been REALLY active these days :D

I'm not an elite player, I barely have a positive WLR but here is my opinion:

The mindset for Midas on supports is different than the mindset for Midas on hard carries. On hard carries you do not want to buy it late because it takes a while to pay for itself and it delays your core items.

The only real core item you have on your support besides wards and smoke is a mekanism and this can be built by the support who is not getting a midas so as not to delay that for the crucial mid-game teamfights where the mek provides the greatest advantage. The point to getting a midas on a support is more the accelerated leveling because a support is by definition someone is more level dependent than item dependent.

If you're a support player that just sits by your carry and denies or harass (or you are forced to do this due to your carry being contested) and you get no gold at all from your safe lane neutral camps you may be better off just not even considering it. But if they're a solo offlaner and you can pretty safely pull camps and take neutrals I think it is definitely a viable situational pick for some supports, especially ones where an extra level or two will give huge benefits in the mid game.

Same sort of philosophy on why I enjoy going midas on Invoker -- you delay your gold but trade that for XP and that is what Invoker needs at minutes 10-20.

Then later if the game does go late you probably will be able to have a sheep stick an the extra disable can be crucial to putting down priority targets, but that is just a bonus not the reason I think midas is sometimes viable.

mek is as much of a support item as midas

its actually disgusting reading through all the shit people think is right
fortunately you dont need to have the right reasoning to make the "right" decision
that might be the saving grace for a selected lucky few of you

get midas if you think the game will drag out until 30+ mins
get it under 15 mins on support

1 midas charge is the same with 1 observer ward combined with some smoke/sentry (because observer has cd)
in 30 mins you got the awesome exp + free ward every charge

funny how nothing you said makes any sense or has any resemblance of relevance

I think Feed and leave's post is the only post worth reading in this entire thread.

@FuckTheZero
funnier how you said midas is the same as mek
and at the same time you said everyone is disgusting