Midas is only if you want to play a macro game. Yes it does give you free gold out of thin air after a certain amount of time. It is however only recommended on late game carries. It is not good on mid game heroes or gankers, as it delays these heroes from getting their core items in which they have a limited time window to be useful in fights.
its not really worth it anymore after the increased price from last update
but if u plan to play chinese farm doto and turtle around for 30+ minutes its good especialy on heroes like invoker who desperately needs that levels
if u buy midas that means u can't get for example threads and that can be punishable quite heavily by early aggresion so yeah
you're ignoring the fact that the faster lvl gain given by the extra exp generated by the midas is allowing your hero to kill creep/farm faster/level faster than your opponent (which may translate to ganks, which in turn accounts for more gold gained). these other benefits are not quantifiable, but, in the hands of a pro team, can theoretically give you exponentially more gains than the simple numbers you have crunched.
however, as demonstrated by pro matches, having multiple midas' can have a double-edged sword effect on your team's success. on the one hand, if your team makes good use of the exp boost provided by the having multiple midas' and gets some early ganks, it basically makes your team snowball faster than normal. on the other hand, if your team builds multiple midas' and ends up getting ganked early, it can prove to be more of a hindrance than a benefit due to most of your early-game resources devoted to building said midas', and ultimately losing you the match.
in conclusion, building multiple midas' is a high risk, high reward decision that should only be executed by the most skilled of teams, and even they are unable to always capitalize on the benefit this build provides.
Midas gives 2.5 the experience not 1.5... so you might want to reconsider the experience value.
I would just like to add that in the current patch Hand of Midas has the 3rd lowest pub winrate of all items that cost over 2000 gold. http://dotabuff.com/items?date=patch_6.79c After the Midas nerf there are very few situations in which it is a good idea.
Almost nothing ensures that you will lose a pub game more than getting a Hand of Midas. Of course even stupid item choices can still win sometimes because Valve tries so hard to get everyone to win half their games. If you want to move closer to Hand of Midas 45% winrate, by all means pick it up and guarantee that you don't have the item you really needed for 5 to 15 more minutes while your team dies and loses towers and you afk farm more trying to make up for your mistaken item choice.
Rearm works on all items except Black King Bar, Arcane Boots, Helm of the Dominator, Hand of Midas, Refresher Orb, Linken's Sphere, Bottle and Necronomicon.
Your calculations are wrong-you don't lose bounty so you don't count that out since you kill creep instantly and do not waste the time killing it=gold not lost, where you would be spending ~10+seconds killing that big ursa/satyr wasting real xp/farm. 10 uses and midas pays for itself which is about 20 mins. If game lasts 25 mins and you got midas min 5 then you are already ahead by +30atk speed item and lots of xp and a potential to sell it for 1k or even snowball even more
they should stop f***ing with the hand of midas. Keep it like old dota 1. NO exp boost keep it 1X, make it 1600 gold or w/e. Then we will see it drop off incredibly.
You have a point with it helping you clear jungle camps faster but I'm not really convinced a Midas in a ricing build is going to help. In a situation where killing creeps quickly is the goal a battlefury is a better option. I know its a bit of a gamble in some situations as far as getting it on a hard carry but this is looking more at the trend of supports buying it.
The argument can also be made that it is allowing supports to get the benefit of killing jungle creeps that they otherwise couldn't so its unfair to subtract the original killing xp from the xp gained. However since a support isn't always going to have access to a big jungle creep so the XP gained would be in between using it on melee creeps and jungle creeps.
@OP
Your calculations are flawed, but only by a few small variables. Please redo the calculations according to EmptyJar
except, midas = 2050, so it takes almost 11 uses, not 10.
The correct way to think about Midas is to look at your level and your gpm, not the generic "time to pay back".
For the xp, it is only relevant if you get it when you are level 5,6,7,8... once you are higher level the bonus XP is totally insignificant, maybe giving you level 16 one or two creep waves sooner if that much. Invoker is the only hero that gets real benefits from levels past 16. But even on Invoker if you don't get the early levels faster... it doesn't help much.
If you can get 400 gpm for the next 5 minutes, then you delay your first major item by about 5 minutes. That is risky, but can work out well for a hard carry. Your subsequent items are faster. Do typical pub hard carries get 400 gpm early in the game? No they don't. Check your last pub replay, its probably more like 250 at that point if not even less. So your carry delays his damage or his bkb dramatically and loses the game. Did your team lose 3 major team fights in a row because you didn't have bkb yet? yes that was the Hand of Midas kicking you in the balls. Who cares what your 40 or 50 min gpm might be when you lose rax at 25 min because you didn't have bkb + 1 major dmg item yet and are basically a creep with a super scary ~150 dps instead of a real threat?
On a support you are out 10 sets of wards to get it... Map dark for the entire mid game? Feeling like you are always about to be ganked? Welcome to support hand of Midas. Get it only if you magically have 2,000 extra gold at level 5,6,7,8 and already got the wards. Your support didn't have the mech you needed to push until way to late? Thank you Hand of Midas. Your support couldn't save you from that critical initiation because they didn't have force staff yet? Yes, hand of midas screwed you again. Basically the only times support hand of Midas works in games where absolutely any items would win.
very few people care about gold/xpm
Main 3 reasons for me(and probably many other) when it came to buying midas were; 1] it looks good in inventory 2] has rly nice animation 3] famous players do it so it has to be efficent right? :E
I looked at the item within the client's item library and you do NOT get the creep bounty. You get 190 gold INSTEAD of the original bounty.
Yes, that is why when you go to jungle, you need to choose- you midas the tiny creep and simply kill the big creep (gold) or midas the big creep and kill his minions (xp). Just going for the jungle and not clearing the camp is kinda a waste, plus it blocks the spawn.
if you really can get it fast and know how to farm effectively its still a good item on carries.
I myself can get it around 5-6 min mark, sooner if i get fb and i buy it on any carry i play.
tbh it doesnt work that well on lane creep carries but some carries like luna,gyro,alch(after 6 he shoulnt be considered a lane creep) and naix really do benefit from levels
i believe the meta is going toward non lane creep carries because of the push strats and ratdoto
"(82+72+58+77+104)/5= Average lost bounty of 79.6g
190-79.6= 110.4 Gold gained per 100 seconds (If the Midas is used on cooldown)"
This is a WRONG way of thinking about midas. It is not true that u benefit 110.4gold per 100 sec.
You benefit 190 gold.
I once had a discussion with a guy on a pub game that told me that I should use midas on the smallest creep, so I lose less potential gold this way (and its the same with your way of calculating, but for some reason you calculated it for the big creeps).
But once you think about it properly its just bullshit.
1.midas big benefit is the xp, which is much higher from the big creeps
2.it is about TIME. the creep bounty is NOT AN ALTERNATIVE COST, as long you have enough creeps in the jungle to farm all the time.
What I mean is that if u use midas on a creep, you DO NOT lose any potential farm gold, because as midas kill it instantly, you save time to kill another creep in a different camp. ONLY little cost you can imagine is the walking time to the next camp, as killing faster-> makes you utilize more camps->more walking ->which, in fact is a minor delay.
3.Plus killing one creep instantly gives you a possibility to clear a camp with little hp loss. Otherwise you wouldn't be even able to fight some of the camps on lvl 4,5,6 etc. (less possible camp farm, more walking, less farm on smaller creeps) or you would have to use money on healing (or time on base walking).
Your calculation has some flaws, nevertheless, a pretty nice job. Let them get their midas and watch their team getting blown. I like afk junglers. I really like them... in trench tier.
i didnt know i lose that much exp if i midas the lane creep.
lets say i leave my lane to the jungle to midas a creep and then i have to kill the small creep in order for the big creep to respawn, how much xp would i lose opposed to using the midas on lane creep?
Lets look at the typical impact of getting Hand of Midas on the top 6 heroes that usually get it in pub games in the past month.
Nature's Prophet nonHoM winrate 51.0% ----> HoM winrate 45.4%
Invoker nonHoM winrate 44.2% ----> HoM winrate 46.3%
Doom nonHoM winrate 51.3% ----> HoM winrate 44.4%
Lifestealer nonHoM winrate 48.2% ----> HoM winrate 43.6%
Alchemist nonHoM winrate 52.6% ----> HoM winrate 41.4%
Legion Commander nonHoM winrate 48.9% ----> HoM winrate 39.9%
Only Invoker winrate goes up using Hand of Midas. Legion Commander, Alchemist, Doom, and even NP are dramatically LESS LIKELY to win if they get Hand of Midas. Lifestealer only loses about 4% going hand of midas... but it is still worse!
STOP BUYING HAND OF MIDAS!!!! These are the most popular HoM heroes. For most heroes it is even more likely to cause you to lose.
Buying hand of midas delays your items which will help you farm faster. You have to take that in mind too. Only time when you should consider buying midas is if you desperately need levels or when you farm it on a support cause support usually feed but HoM gold is reliable so they dont fall behind.
Actually 99% are sub 4k games. We have no data yet on ranked vs non-ranked.
Nearly all dota players are below 4k. But watching the top games, Hand of Midas typically has the same effect. It wins only games where victory was certain no matter what items you get. Picking up Hand of Midas never turns a lost game into a win. Really I think it was a mistake to nerf it. Hand of Midas already sucked before the cost was increased.
that's just wrong. comeback midas is a thing and it most certainly can help you especially if you're playing a hero that makes good use of the attack speed as well. if you're already losing but can still turtle well enough, happen to win a teamfight at 12-15 minutes midas is most definitely a good choice on a carry. it all depends on situation but keeping up with xp is extremely important early on compared to the gold itself
No. Your calculations are terribly wrong. Losing the initial bounty of the creep shouldn't be in this calculation at all because midas makes you waste no time killing the creep. And it only takes 6 uses for the midas to pay for itself. (after this you will sell it) And of course you will benefit from the exp bonuses. It doesn't fucking take 31 minutes for it to pay for itself. It takes ~11 minutes as you won't perfectly use it as soon as it is off CD.
Comeback Midas is a thing... a thing casters say to mock late midas pickups... a thing some pros TRY to do when they don't know what they are doing.
The comeback Midas is a desperation move. It does not turn the game around. It gives you the gold to catch up late game if someone else on your team manages to save it. Getting the Midas does not help; it makes it harder to come back. Delaying your contribution to a team already losing a game makes you even more likely to lose.
Hand of Midas is supposed to be used to lock in the advantage of a very strong early game performance. The situation where it is good is when you got FB, total free farm, and an early tower.
@ Relentless, your stats probably take into account if the user had a Hand of Midas at the end of the game while mostly people will sell it and buy something better for their gold at that time if they did well, so the users that still had Hand of Midas were probably the ones who just lost without having the gold to buy other items.
An Alchemist with free farm and an early Hand of Midas can sell it at 25-30 min if he did well. Naix is a bit slower at farming but having that Midas will increase his AS which really increases DPS in conjunction with feast.
Let me translate this... Hand of Midas is so bad that the only way you win is if you sell it back and get something else.
6 Slotted is when you would sell a Hand of Midas. That means you have 30k to 36k networth. In games where you got to this point at 30 min you have over 1000 gpm. Absolutely any item choice wins games that lopsided.
To get to 6 slot status in a reasonable time (say at the rate of 600 gpm) we are taking about a 50 min game. This is a game in which getting Hand of Midas succeeded because your team already had the ability to fight without you for a long, long time.
When you afk farm forever and then start playing the game at 20,25,30 minutes you are not carrying. You are getting dragged along like the dead weight you are. Eventually you get to a point where all the hard work your team did for you makes you so far ahead you can accidentally win fights. Then you can deceive yourself into thinking you "carried".
There are only a handful of carries so late game oriented that they should not be joining the fight before 20 min and none that should not be fighting before 25 min. By 20 min you should have a major dmg item and a bkb or the appropriate defensive tool. And if you don't you have failed in your role as a carry. It may not be all your fault; perhaps space was not created for you to farm. Nevertheless if you are not ready to fight by 20 min you have failed. Hand of Midas is very likely to push your farm back at least 5 and often 10 minutes making your failure as a carry certain if you don't get it very early in the game.
It's effectively something that can help him analyze data cause I was bored at work. It pullsl all contents(s) and ranges from a selective query into excel so you can organize it and analyze it how you want.
e.g. I want all my AP games since the dawn of time...
I'd be so happy if ppl in my games could at least ask themselves
"What would I do in 15 mins if i didnt buy midas?"
--"AFK fram couse my team can hold 4 protect 1 for sure/couse im a retard but they are retards too and wont gank me" -->Midas
--"I would fight/busy surviving ganks"-->No Midas
This would help a lot. :D
@ Relentless, what about when you still don't have BoT so you have to keep your tp scroll and you want your 5th item? I'd sell the midas, keep the tp and buy that daedalus or cuirass or whatever. With 5 items (PT, Abyssal, Butterfly, AC, BKB) and a tp you only need a net worth of around 23.5k, with said 600 gpm you would have your items in 39 minutes. I don't know for sure but I see people including myself selling it before getting 6 slotted, you've already gained those 2-3k or whatever and exp with the midas, what else do you want to keep it there for. Just my opinion but I don't think it's worth the slot beyond 4 items.
In a game where the enemy team has a strong early game you might want to skip it but if you know your team can deal with it and you can benefit from the early extra gold and exp it doesn't look so bad. You can get back on gold even if you were helping your team with whatever abilities you have (a.k.a. not afk farming), you also get a few levels earlier than the enemy team which always helps. You can counter a hero like Chen and Enchantress or somebody's HoD creeps. And lastly, it helps out with clearing the jungle camps quicker.
Idk, seems pretty fine for me to build it really often on Invoker, NP, Naix (even more so when jungling), Void and sometimes on Alch, Luna, LD, LC, WK, PA.
Sad that I can't play with you because servers outside of Europe would probably lag for me.
ill dispute your point that attack speed does not help you lane.
with faster attack speed than your opponent you can often two-hit a low creep for the last hit before your opponent can react to your first hit and steal the last hit
also midas works really well with phase boots. u attack fast, and you have +22 damage. plus you move fast. its orb walking heaven for lane control.
you also oversimplify the situation.
midas is great bc it forces the other team to change the way they play. you're getting more farm than them, so they must take action and end the game or lose late game. if they have a team that is ready to push right away then its not a good time to get a midas.
also midas is popular a lot in pub games bc teams are very disorganized and open. there is lots of room to farm and not a lot of ganking and organized pushing. if your team is just going to do that then you will struggle and get behind if you try to play a hero that requires teamwork. on the other hand if you are just getting ahead goldwise and expwise due to midas, then this is an ok situation to be in.
also, consider the rule that if you can get a midas in around 6,7 mins on a carry you should get it. this is a good rule. assume your opponent is skilled. they have given you a small window to farm either by a bad lane match up or soem other reason, in which u have amassed 2000 gold. since you have assumed they are good then you will nto be free farming like this again. instead of turning this into some small gain you can turn into a guaranteed flow of gold and exp for the rest of the game. u have just gotten way ahead due to the small amount of space they give you at the start, and theres nothing they can do to deny you this farm for the rest of the game.
now if ur not playing a carry then you are obviously beter off spending this on a different item that will allow you to control the game in a better way obviously. but as carry ur job is to get huge then get that midas
It's a terrible item because you're basically forcing your team to fight 4 on 5 the first 20 mins and pubs cannot win doing this because skill levels aren't high enough. Lifestealer free farming jungle can get power treads and mordigans at 10-12 mins and start pushing lanes really aggressively. With midas you push this back at least 3-4 mins, and that's a BIG difference. Same for heroes like doom, nature's. The new meta actually speeds up games imo, support get more gold, the safe lane's meet in different spots, tri lane not as effective. New meta encourages quicker match resolution which makes midas even worse than before on top of the nerf. It's just not a good item anymore.
"Lifestealer free farming jungle can get power treads and mordigans at 10-12 mins and start pushing lanes really aggressively."
Please teach me to farm over 4k gold in 10 min with jungle Lifestealer
There is a lot left out of the numbers. Mainly because I don't know how to quantify "killing a jungle camp faster" because its going to be different for each camp and it is only going to help you kill a camp once every 100 seconds which might still be negligible. I also put in the loss of the bounty because this is gold that you would have had anyway if you were to kill the camp. It might be the case during the first couple uses that you are killing a camp you might not be able to kill otherwise but after the first 3 uses you should be killing camps as a carry anyways. This is different for a support hero but someone earlier already addressed the issue of a support going off into the jungle and either using Midas on a big creep and leaving the small ones because he is needed more elsewhere or stick around to finish the camp and not being where he needs to be.
Just standard jungle, killing and stacking the small camp at lvl 1, I was able to farm treads and mordigans by 11 mins or so pre jungle nerf in a bot match iirc. Post jungle nerf not sure, haven't timed it. I'll do it later let you know. All I know is regardless of exact timings, going midas will delay every several crucial mins.
man u guys make midas seems so under powered, the item itself is so imbalanced, i'd buy it if its 2600 gold, afk no troll
Id say midas is worth on heroes that are likely to farm more than 10-20minutes and greatly benefit from attack speed and have no item reliant lane dominance, mainly LD, OD, and in good lane case void.
It can also be gotten on heroes that have very slow farming potential if you manage to get fast early gold with their good killing abilities (Slardar, WK, Enchantress)
What you can get from the jungle:
Small Camp 65 to 102 gold... average considering all possible spawns 81 gpm
Medium Camps 81 to 155 gold... average considering all possible spawns 103 gpm
Large Camps 86 to 161 gold... average considering all possible spawns 124 gpm
The average total jungle produces 535 gpm. To get 4k by 10 min with just jungle you have to stack and clear a minimum of 2 large and 1 medium and 1 small camp. Lifestealer cannot do this. Even if supports stack 3 camps for you... He still can't kill them.
Just killing the small camp will put you at 1560 networth at 10 minutes if you add in all the free gold. Basically you will have just treads.
If you kill just 1 large camp you have 2000 networth at 10 minutes.
If you kill 2 large camps every minute for the full 10 minutes, now you are getting close... but still 700 short of armlet at 10 min. There is no way LS can kill 2 large camps every minute for the first 10 min. Anyway, basically you are just remembering games where your team won the lanes so much without you that they even took early towers and probably someone fed you also. That is how you get armlet and treads at 10-12 min.
@Mörkömagus
I went midas on OD quite a few times (more than 100 times actually), it looks good from the attack speed point of view indeed. However, from todays perspective I would say midas costs you the game. The problem is that you spend 2050 gold for an item that creates gold out of "thin air". I could buy a force staff instead which allows me to die less, get more kills, play more aggressively, so in the end I will not only win the game faster and more efficiently, I will also make a way bigger impact in my game than I could with Midas. To be more fair, I actually make more XP and Gold by NOT buying midas than buying it.
You can see on my profile that my GPM and my XPM records are both WITHOUT using hand of midas, despite me buying that item in ~500 games in total (most likely in more).
Midas is an item that looks good on paper, but it's actually shit.
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Hand of Midas
2050 Gold
190 Gold every 100 seconds
2.5 times xp
(Numbers taken from http://dota2.gamepedia.com)
The reason I did all of this work is the fact that I see several Midas in every pro game and was wondering what sort of benefit it actually serves.
The question: Is Hand of Midas worth it?
Gold
190g-Creep Bounty (You do not get the bounty if you midas a creep)
Lets find the average bounty of big jungle creeps as they provide the most amount of xp which is relevant later.
Hellbear Smasher: 76-88g
Centaur Conqueror: 66-78g
Troll Summoner: 54-62g
Wildwing Ripper: 67-87g
Satyr Tormenter: 97-111g
(82+72+58+77+104)/5= Average lost bounty of 79.6g
190-79.6= 110.4 Gold gained per 100 seconds (If the Midas is used on cooldown)
2050/110.4= 18.57 uses (How many times the Midas needs to be used to recoup the cost)
18.57*100 seconds= 1857 seconds = 30.95 minutes is how long it takes to break even.
This doesn't take into account the time it takes to make that initial 2050 gold
If every last hit is gotten in a lane:
Melee creep: 38-48 g
Ranged creep: 43-53 g
8 melee and 2 ranged creep per minute
8*53+2*48= 520 (This is the max amount of gold that can be made in the lane per minute)
2050/520= 3.94min (If every lane creep is last hit, this is how long it takes to make 2050)
3.94 min +30.95 min = Minute 35 in game time is when you break even gold wise from a Midas
Say it is a 60 minute game:
25 minutes of midas (After the initial 35 minutes to recoup the cost of the midas)
25*60= 1500 seconds/100 seconds = 15 uses
We'll use lane creep gold as running into the jungle to use midas becomes much less effective than farming creep waves.
Lane melee creep: 53 gold average
190-53= 137 gold (Net gold after subtracting the lost bounty)
137*15= 2055g created from thin air
Granted a Midas is usually going to be sold at this point so it is fair to add 1025g back.
3080g is the profit for making a midas and keeping it until the 60 minute mark and then selling it.
XP
In an Ideal situation, the hand of midas would be used on a big jungle creep as they offer the max amount (119 XP) of any creep that Midas can be used on.
119*2.5=297.5 (This is the amount of xp gained every time you Midas)
297.5*18.57= 5524 xp after 35 minutes
Lvl |tot. xp| xp to reach next level
1 0 200
2 200 300
3 500 400
4 900 500
5 1400 600
6 2000 600
7 2600 600
8 3200 1200
9 4400 1000
10 5400 600
11 6000 2200
12 8200 800
13 9000 1400
14 10400 1500
15 11900 1600
16 13500 1700
17 15200 1800
18 17000 1900
19 18900 2000
20 20900 2100
21 23000 2200
22 25200 2300
23 27500 2400
24 29900 2500
25 32400 -
More or less equivalent to 3 levels by minute 35 depending on the situation
In a 60 minute game:
35 minutes to break even then 25 minutes of lane creeps because running into the jungle instead of farming lane creeps in inefficient.
Assuming melee creep as they offer the most xp of any lane creep at 62xp.
2.5*62=155 xp (xp gained by using midas on a melee lane creep)
Borrowed the 15 uses in 25 minutes earlier
15*155= 2325 xp (amount of xp gained in 25 minutes when lane creeps are being Midas’d)
Conclusion
The gold is a net amount created from thin air as the gold lost from killing the creep is already rolled into the calculations.
However the XP is a different story.
Just killing the creep instead of using midas on it gets you:
119*18.75=2209 xp
5524 xp after 35 minutes
5524-2209=3315 xp
The midas creates 3315 xp from thin air after the 35 minute mark
Midas in a PERFECT game that is 60 minutes in length where you are allowed to get every last hit in lane and given free access to the jungle whenever the midas is on cooldown gets you 5640 xp and 3080g on average.
This is the upper bound for experience. It is possible to Midas lane creeps but doing so reduces the amount of xp gained by 35 minutes to 1727 xp and after a 60 minute game to 3139 xp.
Using Midas on only lane creeps after 35 minutes give you 2544.09g and after a full 60 minutes with a sold midas 5648.75g but doing so hits the experiences gained as mentioned above.
It is possible to make a little bit more than 4599 gold if you only use the midas on small creeps (small jungle camps) but necessitates searching for these so I don’t think its a practical strategy.
The average game lasts right around 35 minutes meaning that in a perfect game you are still only breaking even gold wise and gaining a very small amount of extra xp.
However a game is not going to be perfect, the midas will spend time on cooldown and every second is precious if these meager gains are to be gotten. My advice is to buy a Battlefury or Maelstrom. At least those items have some applications when fighting heroes which has been altogether left out of these calculations.
This of course doesn’t count the cost of spending that initial 2050g on a different item that may benefit you in taking an early fight or pushing a tower.
As for the attack speed it is won’t make much of a difference. Attack speed while farming in lane does not add any major benefit since auto attacking the creeps would push them away losing you more gold than the attack speed would be gaining you. Attack speed only helps in clearing the jungle. The calculations to find out how much the attack speed affects a carry gaining additional items are too complex for me and I can’t say how much time is saved with a sliver more attack speed over the course of the game.
As for supports buying a midas, don’t. Supports do need levels but not at the expense of items. Supports often don’t have the opportunity to have 4 minutes of uninterrupted farm at the start of the game meaning that the midas is gotten later which is usually 15 minutes+. This pushes back the point where the midas becomes profitable beyond the 35 minute mark as it always takes that 31 minutes to make back the cost of the midas. So the game end while the support has yet to even break even gold wise and has only gained about 2 levels of xp maximum. That gold for buying the midas could also be put towards support items mainly a Mekansm. A victorious team fight or a tower taken early will probably make you more gold than a midas in a 60 minute game as a support.
LONG STORY SHORT: MIDAS TAKES 31 MINUTES ON AVERAGE TO PAY FOR ITSELF IF YOU WANT THE FULL BENEFIT OF THE 2.5 TIMES XP.
Edit: playdota.com told me that midas gave 1.5 times xp which is not the case in Dota2. Its actually gives 2.5 times so I redid the parts concerning XP.