He has one of the best burstdowns during early-mid game. And familiars can actually win you fights if stoneform chain stun is timed properly.
I think he's harder to play than meepo. You actually have to have proper timing and sometimes bait too if there's now low HP ally. If you do it wrong sometimes you just feed your birds or don't get max stun from them. The timing of his birds has to come from the jungle to stun just as you are about to gank enemy heroes or as the enemy dives your allies.
MoC is a really good item for Visage because it compliments well w/ his familiars. Visage & his familiars will have more rightclick damage from minus armor.
Mekanism allows you to survive longer in fights. It'll let you tank more damage so you could cast more soul assumptions.
he is very good in team fights and small skirmishes from early to mid game because of his low cd nuke
mid to late game bird chain stun wins clashes in Pro level games. How much more in pub/amateur games?
I have select all units as ~, 1 as hero, 2 select all birds. When fight breaks out, press 2, click just behind enemies (or in middle), shift+q, tab, Shift+q, tab, Shift_q. press 1, q, medallion, w when you have full bars. Incoming team wipe.
Get scepter after medallion if you can have another player buy mek]
edit: yea always use birds separate from hero. Scout ahead, check rosh/runes. After I die if my birds are alive I always stun lock whole team, pick of heroes running away (since birds can fly over all terrain) or save my team if they are running.
Don't always keep your birds near your hero. They should always be doing something to help your team whether it be scouting/help with ganking/saving an ally. You can even stack with them. Don't forget to micro them in team fights (And not just set up for the stun). They are generally ignored and thus, you ARE going to get a few good hits here and there on your opponents (they just melt supports).
Despite his low cd nukes, he can spam his skills well enough to due his high int growth so arcane boots will not be that useful unless your team actually needs it.
Visage player here.
@[A]dmiralBullshit
I play a bunch of micro heroes but meepo is pretty much the one I cannot play (effectively). So I find meepo harder
@-hg- HungLikeKimJong
Shiftque is pretty awful on visage since you need to hit the timing windows right
@topic
MoC decreases armor by -6 and therefor raising the physical dps by about 30% during the early stage. Also It provides mana regen and Armor (Visage has quiet high str and gain) which Visage needs.
Before her nerf of her natural Magicresist I almost ignored her passive and focussed and W and then Q.
Anyway nowadays maxing E seems more in fashion. Make sure you shoot out your W everytime you can and know EXACTLY how much damage at deals at each stage. Dont necessarily shoot it at the one being focused!
Hero is a lot about practise practise practise.
First try to micro birds and hero independently(as in move commands).
Then try to use the stun as effective as you can without forgeting about your hero.
Finally try to micro both independently and use spells on both very effectively.
It takes a lot of practise, but you have a motivation. So do it!
Shameless selfadvertisement inc. :
My Visage Games:
http://dotabuff.com/players/133212901/matches?hero=visage&game_mode=&match_type=
Some micro tips:
http://www.twitch.tv/iwin4poland/c/3560178
2 Visage VoDs:
http://www.twitch.tv/iwin4poland/c/2052809
http://www.twitch.tv/iwin4poland/c/2866142
he is not harder to play than meepo.
and I usually skip medal, and just go for meka/pipe(if needed)/aghs.
arcane boots are best boots on him by far.
edit: go figure arka has to post while I'm typing mine out. -_-'
I suggested shift queing for someone who is new and struggling. it allows him to at least do something, and if there is another stun on your team, or a clockwork or something it actually works great. Medallion is almost a must every game, and I think treads >arcane boots, as mana is only really ever an issue at the very early levels. And then its only an issue if you are spamming spells unnecessarily.
I hope by maxing e first you mean after w? If so I agree. maxing soul then armor is the way to go with one point in q at lvl 1
He has a speed DRAIN. This is the only hero in dota who can literally steal your attack and movement speed. He also has a spammable dagon, and he is extremely tanky for a support. One of his best abilities though, is his ultimate. He can: Ward, check rune/deny rune, stack camps, chain stun (i saw a visage interupt a blackhole right at the start of it during an inhouse, apparently they are immune to it), they deal MASSSIVE DAMAGE ESPECIALLY WITH MEDALLION, and they are low priority targets for towers, so they can push really well.
@-hg- HungLikeKimJong
If you are new and struggling, shiftque is not going to help you to micro any better. Actually to encourage such a thing makes it worse since one first needs to know the perks que-ing first. Imagine a new player which just shiftques all the time, missing all the stuns due to the enemy movements. He himself thinks he did fine cause one said shiftqueing is the way to go and he will stick to it.
It is a step by step process to get familiar with such heroes. Make the right steps in the right way and you will have a bright future
@[ESP*] Wink
He does not drain speed in any way anymore. Nowadays it is irrelevant how fast the enemy is and such.
Familiars are affected by the blackhole. By the silence to be exact, so he must have casted stoneform just before the bh or it must have been on the border to bh
Shift que is a tool and can be utilized to anyone's benefit. It was a suggestion not something to be done blindly in every case. I dont think anyone is going to shift que day in and day out and think they did well after missing stuns cuz a guy on a forum suggested it. If they keep doing it despite failing and dont try anything new there is a problem there
Shift que can be used to great effect with familiars to scout, move from rune to rosh pit etc, to follow up stun after a concotion/hammer, into clockwork cogs, or an RP etc. Many people I see dont use it with familiars and it can allow you to stun up and team and free yourself to use spells, instead of failing and micro and leaving you hero unused like many new visage players do.
@ OP, dont blindly use shift-que, but it can be quite helpful. bind all familiars to 2 (or whatever control group) and use tab and q to cycle through and stun. Max W then E (not e first) with a point at 1 in chill, as I tried to clear up. and medallion is an important item for dps
edit: why are people saying max cloak? max soul assumption then cloak with a point in cloak at 5. maxing cloak before soul is absolute trash can
As a guy who played 31 games of visage and won 21 of them I would say that you don't need some serious skills to win pubs with this hero. Only the basics of this hero are so powerful that they can be auto-win button for lower-level games.
My suggestions would be to never skip medalion,ever. then probably mek, if you aren't rich you could buy tranquils for HP regen and skip mek for faster aghanim. boots of choice are mainly tranquil boots or arcane boots(for intense play), in some situations you wouldn't need to upgrade boots at all for some time. and you should get one point in grave chill but should max Cloak first almost always. Pub playersoften make mistakes, so adapt to them, if a pudge ganks you, don't run , if you fight back with familiars he will die before his ult ends. And always try to have familiars charged up so that you can melt heroes when time comes, and try to stun after they are discharged.
Hi Mr. Fibble. Here's my opinion on visage (in 20 games on 6.79c, i have a 75% win rate).
1) i play a lot of support. if I need a tanky support on our team, i basically always choose visage (i don't play omniknight--he's usually the go-to for tanky supports). Even after his recent nerf (they lowered his starting magic resist, I believe), he can take a lot of damage (especially once you get hood of defiance online).
2) his familiars' stuns are extremely useful. difficult to use while being chased, but if you are the pursuer he you can use familiars' ability to fly over impassable terrain (cliffs, trees) to catch up to fleeing enemies. When initiating, my order is generally: familiar stun 1, familiar stun 2, grave chill, soul assumption (once your charges are maxed out).
3) items: my build is pretty straight forward. my order: headdress, boots, strength power treads, mek, hood of defiance. try to get wards in between major items--for example, try to get a set of observers AND sentries after finishing power treads, mek, and hood. treat each of those items as mini-milestones. each time you hit an item "milestone," but some wards. you should also get EITHER donkey or 1 set of observers at the very start of the game--ask another player kindly to upgrade donkey for you so you can get your mek up fast. Once you have your hood of defiance, you have some item freedom. i usually go shiva's guard and then AC, but i think ags or medallion would also work (I just really love the armor bonus in tandem with his gravekeeper's cloak passive, hence my love for armor items on him.
4) range range range. between his familiars and the range on his soul assumption, visage can really extend his influence over a decent range. soul assumption has a massive cast range and can be extremely usefull in killing off heroes that are out of auto-attack distance. remember, you collect charges EVEN IF YOU TAKE DAMAGE. so often times, a hero will turn around to disable you and in the process fills your soul assumption charge counter for you. get used to playing visage, get an idea for how much dmg. he can tank, and use soul assumption & his chasing abilities accordingly.
5) gameplay. usually, prior to lvl 6 I support a carry in lane (either hard or easy lane works). this means denying everything in sight and getting zero last hits. however, once you get your ulty online, i like to use the familiars to push lanes. get a couple allies to join in, and a threesome can push a lane pretty efficiently with familiars helping.
edit: 6) escape! turns out his grave chill is great for escaping, since you steal enemy movement speed. one of my favorite supports is shadow demon, but against heroes like pudge his weaknesses really stand out. even if visage gets hooked, his tankiness (very tanky compared to shadow demon) allows him to (usually) survive pudge ulty and allows you to grave chill and escape! grave chill also super useful for debuffing dps carries like life-stealer and phantom assassin. lower their attack speed and watch them melt.
hes' bad atm, visa is very good in tri vs tri, if he have to pull/roam he lose a lot of his true pwer.
i dont like him in pubs
also fuck meda meka, rush agha :)
are you aware a valve dev stated in reddit/r/dota2 there will be severe punishment for coach abuse
im just surprised somebody like you would do this kind of shit, let me know what rating you get at level 13 :-)
@-hg- HungLikeKimJong
Thanks for improving your point.
@Luxon
I played atleast 200 of visage games in less than a year. At some points up to 10 times a day :)
http://dotabuff.com/players/82211644/heroes?date=&game_mode=&match_type=&metric=played
http://dotabuff.com/players/133212901/heroes?date=&game_mode=&match_type=&metric=played
This does not include IH, Scrims, Tournaments
You can buy both chicken and wards. dont really understand you item progression there snooze. medallion, scepter are core. Much more so than hood, which is a terrible item IMO because you already have SO much magic resist from gravekeepers cloak. Medallion is almost a must every game, and once you have that and a mek you scan do scepter or AC. Aghs makes you a lot more relevant into late game. I usually go brown boots -> medallion -> basi/treads. Sometimes i pick up basilius depending but I think that medallion before finishing treads allows for much more early game dps. maybe better to finish treads first if you are struggling to stay alive, and better medallion if you are on a roll
OP - be wary of playing visage when your enemy has a bristle, tinker, gyro - any hero that can easily pick of your birds is going to be tough to play against. Picking visage every game regardless of the other team is very dangerous
-hg- HungLikeKimJong, thanks for the advice. I'll try your build out tonight (despite the fact that I have a superior visage record in the current patch :) ...
He's definitely right about the disclaimer at the end. I'd add Weaver, Sniper, Bounty Hunter, and Riki to the list of heroes that can take out your familiars with ease.
You may have a 1-2% higher winrate, but over the size of the sample it is negligible. However, your KDA is kinda low... I guarantee you it will improve if you get medallion every game (also VERY helpful for roshing. I almost always see cheese drop every visage game cuz I rosh so much.) and stop wasting gold on a hood. You already have 64% magic resist from stacked cloak, and any supports who try to nuke you should get melted by your medallion then birds and soul assumption. medallion is very cheap and can always have it by like 10 mins.
I suggest:
brown boots - medallion - treads - mek (if you have another support ask them if they want to get it so u can rush aghs) - aghs - AC
Obv get wards in between, and can toss in a basilius somewhere if you want. Whats your skill build? I hope you max soul assumption first. check datdota skill builds virtually all pros max it first. it is a no brainer. well over 99% of pro games soul is maxed first
im not gonna enlighten you. you can stay ignorant for all i care. there is absolutely no fucking reason what so ever to get treads on visage.
its just so painfully stupid i cant begin to understand why would anyone do that.
fucking ignorant scrub. Visage is not very mana intensive. Surivability from str and attack dmg from int are much more benficial, plus more souls from increased attack speed. If you have 2-3 other mana boots on your team, there is absolutely no fucking reason what so ever to get mana boots.
But hey, you are too ignorant to ever buy medallion on visage - one of the most obvious and core items for any hero in the game. If you can't imagine why anyone would buy alternative boots, even situationally, then you dont understand this game. maybe your visage kda would be less shit if you knew how to build him. If you were smart you would have researched this before troll posting, and you could even learn something because of it. but we know that wont happen
http://www.tapugames.it/articles.php?article_id=960
DK's Dai agree's with me. on Datdota powertreads were bought in pro games 291 to 410 mana boots. Obviously mana boots bought more, but nothing close to your absurd hyperbole about treads being absolutely useless. In stacks I do buy mana boots sometimes if team needs them, but pub stomping I go treads more often than not. Enjoy scrubbing it up without a medallion
I agree with the guy who said you don't need perfect micro to be an effective visage. If you do have perfect micro with him you will pull off amazing stuff. But even with substandard micro visage is powerful. You can just have the gargoyles auto attack with everyone selected and tab through them pressing their Q stun and concentrate on positioning yourself. Visage's nuke and drain are so strong early and mid game gargoyle timing doesn't need to be perfect. Don't be afraid to try him out.
Also if you aren't an expert with the gargoyles assault curiass is a good item over aghs. Gives you even more armor and attack speed which goes nicely with your drain.
agreed. Not so hard that its not worth trying, but it will take some time to get the hang of micro'ing the babies. However, once you get the hang of it, you can truly stun lock groups of enemies for an absurd amount of time with scepter. and its great to be able to turn around teamfights even while youre dead with the birds
Thank you all guys, I will play him tonight for sure, and you all made me stoked to do it!! Big thanks to HungLikeKimJong, snooze and win4arka for the long and insightful advice, and thanks to all the rest too, I love this community <3.
Yes even the trolls :D They add flavor!
So, quick summary of points due to all the trolling itt:
1: skill build (max W as soon as possible, then e after. trust me): QWWEWRW (then max E). This is number 1 pro build from datdota. Basically start q, max w with 1 point in E at 4, ult at 6 then max e.
- You can start with W if you are in a trilane with other stuns/slows so you can get easier lvl 1 first blood. Also if you are ganging up to get first blood and have slows/stuns with you can get W, but generally Q to start is safe.
2. Items: courier and/or wards, whatever stats/regen you want. Sometimes i start with a ring of protection into a quick basilius.
Brown boots - (basilius maybe) - medallion - treads/arcane - mek (unless another support wants to buy, but visage is a great mek holder) - scepter - AC/Shivas. I am sure some people prefer not to prioritize scepter. If you are not good at bird micro might be best to hold off on scepter
Fighting:
Bind birds to a control group, hero to one, and all units to another. I use ~ all, 1 hero, 2 birds. Open with a Q, then medallion debuff, then attack with all units (alternatively set up a stun with tab-q if you can) till you get max souls. Soul assumption whenever its off CD and souls maxed. You can chase with birds over impassable terrain. If you die be sure to micro birds and set up stuns for your team.
Birds recharge damage after stunning. So if a teamfight it going to happen soon and you have been using birds, Q them to regen HP and dmg but make sure to do it well before a fight so its off CD. You want to use them to attack and stun. Try to avoid just stunning and not attacking. If a bird is getting focused, drop him to the floor. If you attack with them for a bit, go for a stun so you get damage back.
Sould assumption range is crazy. Always murder people running away, but try not to kill steal if a higher farm priority hero can kill. If they cant, by all means slay their ass. Keep medallion debuff up as much as possible, cooldown is faster than you think. Use it on rosh for easy quick rosh kills. Scout ahead of your team with birds, scope out enemy jungle, runes and roshan. Careful not to feed birds. Run them over impassable spots to save them. Good luck
6.80 Visage
-Base movement speed reduced by 5
-Grave Chill manacost rescaled from 70/80/90/100 to 100
-Familiars are now properly magic immune (They were previously 96% magic resistant and immune to most stuns)
Well that's another nerf. I don't know how "properly" done familiar magic immunity is but I hope familiars are still target-able by magic spells so people are still prone to misclicking them. heh.
I think only bkb-piecing abilities can be targeted on familiars now. that is what magic immunity means basically right. I mean its just a nerf to his early mana pool. Might start picking up some clarities or mana boots a bit more often. Not a large nerf IMO
@Nerf
Q is not that efficient for lane control
magic immune vs high resistance
no pure dmg spells will kill birds
minus-armor spells which go through bkb only will count now
however there might be some effecive stun vs her birds now
@Iwin4arka
level 4 Purification(pure, spell) instakills familiars.
Stifling dagger(pure, spell) lvl4 when hitting crit can instakill familiars too.
OD arcane orb(pure atk) kills familiars fast too.
There's magical, pure & physical.
Familiar dies w/ pure(purification,pa dagger, etc) & physical (alchemist stun, bristleback quills)
^yep. and my concern with the recent patch is that if that "properly magic immune" meant Familiars are in some kind of "eternal BKB" kind of magic immunity. I'd assume they are and it sounds like a great buff.
If familiar's immunity will be the same as BKB, They won't die w/ pure damage.
its definately a nerf, pure dmg is situational as only a select amount of heroes can utilize it against visage and if familiars are well microed it doesnt really matter anyway
the grave chill nerf however is major, with 3 branches u only have about 380 mana at lvl 2 on visage, meaning u can use two soul assumptions and a grave chill in between, now with the increased mana cost there is no way u can do that so if u want to slow ur opponent u cant use two nukes on him as well
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I have come across so many players stating that visage is such a good, OP hero. And to their own extent, it is true, they all have like around 70-80% win rate on the hero, and always buy medallion + mek. Could someone who plays Visage, or knows a lot about the hero, please explain how you would play him in this fashion, and what makes him so strong?
PS if anyone wants links for the profiles I'm talking about, sorry, but that was awhile ago that I saw it ^^