What? I rly rly rly rly suck at this game, my mmr is 3k and I cant farm at all, missing 80% of the possible last hits that i should take couse noone else can, rather stack than farm the jungle... and what I def do is feed a lot, so losing even more gold. But still, in every 50+ min game lately (just ckecked), buying all wards and usually buying detection too, i had boots + at least 2 (usually its 3) "big" items as mek, force staff, euls, drums, bkb, etc. so if you only have what you write in a pub, you already lost.
@Vaeldiithia
"buying all wards and usually buying detection too, i had boots + at least 2 (usually its 3) "big" items as mek, force staff, euls, drums, bkb, etc"
Last time I checked there were only 6 slots in inventory, you can't have all these items with wards and detection, not talking about tp scrolls in case of splitpushes.
-.-'
Boots|Drums|Observer
Fstaff|TPscroll|Sentry
Boots + 2 "big" items + all support shits.
Or replace sentry with a third item like euls/mek/whatever, place obs, use that slot for sentries for counterward, its doable in 6 mins time, its empty again when needed... Still cant understand you. Even if i had wand, i can sell when buying second "big" item. If they have invis hero and noone has gem, then I wont have 3rd item and will need constant slot for detection (either sentry or dust), thats when only 2 items.
Sentry needed not only to detect invis heroes, but to deward as well.
just buy a force staff instant of a mek, atleast thats what i do mostly
without gamelink there isnt much to say
stay with team and behind, if enemy carry is going for you, you're team should be able to do tons of dmg to him (even if you die)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/516581784
Ok, take this game of mine as an example. We had huge lead at the beginning, I managed to keep Ursa off my teammates and "Rosh-pit", but at minute 32 game turns around with our full team wipe and getting worse and worse after that.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
Get Dominator, dominate a creep, buy a smoke and make it hide in the enemy base's trees. Tell your far too lately farmed AM to constantly teleport there and attack the ancient. Win.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/357809788
Play with your drunken teammates. http://dotabuff.com/matches/379380017 Win...don't ask me how the 2 supports managed to die the least.
Ok, in all seriousness, those games weren't meant to be...
@[Lk].Zano
I don't have to ask you how, your Crystal Maiden has Heart of Tarrsque, it tells everything. And in first game you have 6-slotted CM too. This can't happen if teams are even.
@Soultrap: Omg, I already stated in my comment that its doable to place the observers, counterward with the same slot and have it empty again in 6 mins for next set of wards... -.-' And then you state i need it to counterward. Why even answer to you? Even if my sentence wasnt clear, it definetly had the counterward word in it.
you have 1.2k gold at min 38, 2 sentrys in inventory, but you still buy a new set of sentrys for no reason
39 mins 1.6k gold, again 2 sentrys (4 in stash)
and btw, you buy tons of sentrys... counterwarding is good, but if you dont have items you're just a creep
against ursa/lanaya you should really buy a ghostscepter/forcestaff (special when ursa is going always for you with activated bkb) Would've saved you many times, or atleast give you time to do more
yes buyback is important, but bb is worthless if they can kill you again in 3 seconds when you cant save yourself
not sure ghostscepter would win you the game, since last fights went horrible for you, but mek was almost useless (1,2k hero healing after it was 22 mins finished, and saved you once i guess)
also you should try to avoid dewarding enemy area alone in midgame, ursa got 3 freekills on you there
tldr: buy ghost/force, skip mek and try to avoid dewarding solo in mid/lategame
@Vaeldiithia
It takes twice the time. Meanwhile you must help you team to make some kills happen.
@I3lackmagic
I expected Ursa to buy Shadow Blade at some point. It is common item on this hero, but he skipped it. Probably my mistake then to buy too many sentries.
I wanted to create some opportunities for Clock+Lifestealer ganking combo. This is why I warded enemy's jungle. Risky move and I paid for it. Was it a mistake? Not sure.
since you were killed solo there more then once, yes a mistake.
If you wanted to bait them without any other vision in that area, yep also a mistake (nor backup)
Also ursa (mostly) goes dagger OR shadow blade, its rare that they go for both
//e its easy to judge about someone else (after the game), but you should really try forcestaff in some games, pays off much more imho
Ok, I made mistakes, but main question is how to survive in teamfights.
So you saying that Mek is overrated and force staff is better?
Hard support wouldn't get mek, that's a 3-4 role thing. The 5 role can't afford mek. If the game went to 50 minutes, she would have had an initiation item force or blink, or something for survival, IE drums or bkb.
@Melody-San 少女
Force Staff - 2250g
Mek - 2300g
50 gold difference makes it too expensive? I can't accept this logic.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/515912043
Crystal Maiden certainly does not "fade away" in late game. Infact, with good items, she can be devastating. Check my hero damage compared to everyone else. Only Invoker out damaged me on my team, that's saying something.
Blink>ulti>shadowblade OP
@ soultrap, when a 3-4 role can have it 15 minutes earlier, yes it makes a big difference. Please look at the bigger picture, you're thinking just about you.
...that 6 slotted CM in the first game I posted...did you take a look at my team's deads? Yes, the teams weren't even, MINE was the one with a glaring disadvantage. So yes, it's still possible to get "6 slotted" (note how basically all of my items in that game, except for the Ghost scepter are built from really cheap pieces) as a hard support (in that game, literally the only support as the other 4 heroes were damn carries) in a 50+ min game. But it was a pub. A horrible pub. Anything can happen in horrible pubs.
@[ESP*] Wink
So what? I nearly outcarried SF here in a 4 vs 5 game...
http://dotabuff.com/matches/321342186
It happens in low skill matches.
Regardless, force a 3-4 role to buy mek. In that game ^ Clock or silencer could have made mek FAR earlier. By the time you had it, it really wasn't even that useful.
50+ and you only have tranq and mek. thats terrible. you need some type of blink or force for frostbite. at least
I would like to watch some pro games videos, where they use Blink Dagger on Crystal Maiden for good. Any links, please?
Btw, it must be very fast blink dagger, I guess... Like 10 minutes or so?
you will die unles your team has better/higher initiation/picks/gpm/xpm etc
none is going to let support (usually hero with most cc spells+meks+fs) stay alive and control flow of the team clash
Ok, let me change main question.
Imagine you have unlimited gold on a support hero, what are best 6 items to make you... hmmm... not just survivable, but more useful in late game?
sheep
orchid
bkb
forcestaf
blink
ghost
mek
pipe
eblade
dagoon
travels
u cant just point 6 best items you dont repeat same game over and over some adjustments have to be done
Hex, Force Staff, EB, Veil (depends on hero), Linken's (use on your carry), Dagger (depends on hero as well) and BKB. Sometimes Refresher and Shiva are good as well.
Hex on a 5 role? That's insanity lol. Maybe for some supports but not a five role. That's really crazy.
IN MY OPINION
[*]Five role supports stay with brown boots for a while. After successful ganks or some jungling/ tower gold/cs you can either up grade to phase or tranquil if you want.
[*] Magic wand is a must for early game. Usually you don't go to lane with it but you can grab it at the side shop before boots if it's vs a tri or dual lane usually.
[*]Wards / Dust / Smoke / Deward / Tps carried at all times or kept on cd. Give tp scrolls to roles that request it.
[*]Work into something to keep yourself alive. Bracers work well, into drums if you need the stats or movement speed or if the team doesnt have it yet.
[*] Blink and force are both great items that can keep you save and innate well.
[*] If there is a lot of nuke or you are being targeted somewhat consider building into BkB or Heavens Halberd.
[*]GS is good, just make sure you don't make it in the wrong situations, IE lina / visage
[*]Medallion and Urn are amazing items that can help you win lane or roam better.
He said "Imagine you have unlimited gold on a support hero" so why not?
^Most of them countered by BKB.
How about this build on Crystal Maiden:
1) Heaven's Halbeard
2) Blade Mail
3) Travel Boots
4) Necronomicon
5) Ethereal Blade
6) Abyssal Blade
Survivable but still useful, right?
No it's not. Neither Halberd nor Blade Mail goes through BKB and Abyssal Blade needs you to be in melee range to use it. Necro is always good and EB is good as well but Blade Mail is a terrible idea.
It's not like I'm going to run into melee range of enemy carry to stun him with Abyssal, more like he'll run into my melee range anyway. But well, enough dreams. I agree with Melody-san, my items progression was similar to what she said in most games. I'll try to prioritize Force Staff (maybe Blink) over Mek more in my future games.
i don't think you need that much item to actually survive with crystal maiden. This hero doesn't require you to have that much item knowledge so just following a suggested item from valve will works wonder
All you need to know about crystal maiden is you must be a constant ganker because your presence will decline at the end of the game, so tranquil and wand is a must as starter. The reason i built phase boots on her was because when i was still playing her. Tranquil wasn't as good as they are now
a good approach to make yourself useful late game is before you die you have to deal as much damage as possible or get a nuke item like dagon lv 1 or probably shivas as a really luxury item or just focus on early game and just do ward/smoke/dust at the end. You don't have to worry that you won't have a presence late game because your aura at lv 4 is like global mana boots, so even if you just arrive mid battle and cast a frost nova, you still make a huge presence to the team.
She is the easiest hero to play along with bane so don't make it so complicated to you
@Yfay
I don't like CM as a ganker. I think that 1-1-3 build is more proper way to play this hero. But maxing Frostbite first has its benefits too.
And you say that Dagon makes you more viable in late game? Okay... =)
If CM is the easiest hero, then who is Wraith King with his one and only "Q" button?
Yes me too, look at my skill build, even sometimes i skip frost bite at level 1 because i prioritise mana aura, but are you sure you are just going to play passive at your lane, protecting your carry and make sure he can get farm. What do you do if your carry already have a free farm? you are going to jungle to farm? Of course there are better items than dagon, i myself never built dagon on her, it's just an example of nuke item
Wraith King come after crystal maiden & Bane, because firstly, To play wraith king you at least have to learn how to last hit which probably takes longer to learn than casting 2 skills to make yourself useful in team fight. Secondly, you need to know what opponent hero can do. So you need at least some heroes knowledge, knowing what antimage ability is, what mana burn is. If you start game at dota with wraith king you are going to have a bad time because the problem with beginner is they haven't learn to manage their mana, but if you start with crystal maiden you won't have a problem with this. Just take mana aura and you can cast any spell you like. Finally, Wraith King is a right click hero. So you basically you have to survive for a period of time in a teamfight, what crystal maiden should do in teamfight? queue your skill and done that's your effort. What's harder in crystal maiden compared to wraith king is just she has to position herself to make his ultimate does the most damage, whereas Wraith King can just come from every direction and rape in teamfight and that's it.
Let's say even if you are in 4k mmr sometimes i even see a carry that can't even last hit and they have like 800+ games. Last hitting skills required a constant practice, but casting spell doesn't
Wraith King is a support actually. All you need is maxed out first skill and Arcane Boots. 2 seconds stun+nuke has only 8 seconds cooldown, so unless your victim has some sort of escape, you will be able to cast your nuke twice and it secures kill. Then you progress by maxing your aura for upcoming teamfights and building Drums, and so on...
oh my god u skilled aura first
can u delete this thread before i kill myself thanks
Jesus christ, you all talk like cm is fucking awful in late game. Not just cm is so sexy, on top of it, it just rains in teamfights. Bkb, agha dager(or no) for cm in 50 min game is nothing particular ( especialy if you make midas at aroud 25 min) , ofc getting few wards, smoke ( that shit is so fucking op, i won't even discuss ) and it seems duable. In late, you don't just go blink and ulti, you try to bait them to some hidden place (lets say trees, at dire secret shop, for an example ) and , bye, bye enemy.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/515403354
http://dotabuff.com/matches/517000954
http://dotabuff.com/matches/518729382 - power of veil, you ever tried.
To haters. I constantly warded, perma ganked mid, bought tp's , so don't think i spent 50 min of farming.
@I like to suport, fuck me...
You have only 43 games on this account, server puts you in a game with very low skilled beginners so far.
IDK, but look at my very first game. I thought that Dazzle completely broken after it. =)
http://dotabuff.com/matches/308351162
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Imagine you playing hard support Crystal Maiden in 50+ minutes game. Your inventory looks like: wand + tranquil boots + mek + wards + tp scroll. Meanwhile most enemy heroes have their BKBs (maybe some Linkens on top of that).
Question is: how to not die in very first second of teamfight and still contribute to your team?
I know that supports supposed to "fade away" in late game (and CM is perfect example), but is there something you still can do?