"cmon defining that XBOCT juke as "simply walking into the trees" is a bit too much. you may not like the guy and i dont care about it, but dont try to make that fucking juke look simply.. he was getting ganked by 3 guys, ended up killing two of them and not giving away a firstblood
if it was Hao in his skin, for example, he would bait and right click io to death while he would be killed faster than he could be kill any of them
that was a fucking brilliant play, you make it sound like easy to "run into the trees" with 3 fucking heroes chasing you at lvl2.. he waited until the very least seconds to pop up his ulti which made he get the kills, most ppl would just panic and throw their stun ASAP"
See this is that na'vi fan stuff. Here watch the play again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VyfoESxKzE He starts channeling concoction just before the stun lands, as soon as the stun is over he drops acid spray and throws the stun immediately. Waiting? I think not. And the only reason he survived for as long as he did? Watch how many times his shield procs the block. And you don't think alliance kills themselves when they dive under tower without a creep wave, eating tower hits the entire time? Sure he goes into a slightly uncommon hide away slot, but his stun was off cooldown by the time they go and dive him again, and he throws it as soon as he gets vision on bulldog again. For the record, neither of these stuns were max duration or damage, first one released with 3 seconds to go and 2nd one released with 4 seconds to go(this being the old duration, that means 1 and 2 seconds away from max duration, respectively).
Now the 2nd play? Alliance kills themselves again. If wisp doesn't tether breaking all the trees, NONE of them would have died. And again he releases the stun with 4 seconds to go, and rng was against alliance with a 1 second chaos stun.
He did nothing really special in either play, and quite frankly, they're common sights even in the 3k bracket.
@Dipshit "He did nothing really special in either play, and quite frankly, they're common sights even in the 3k bracket."
Implying you play in 3k bracket, wp.
XBOCT definitely isn't a top tier player right now but you can't possibly blame him for all the losses. I've seen countless games where XBOCT wins his lane solo when the supports are constantly moving around ganking other lanes and then contributes to fights but Funn1k already fed offlane a little bit too much and hasn't got the items or Dendi is just getting wrecked mid by ganks. I wouldn't go as far as to blame any individual person on the team, I think they all have their share of fails so they need to get it together and start winning.
"Implying you play in 3k bracket, wp."
Implying that mentioning a bracket means you play in it, wp.
"XBOCT definitely isn't a top tier player right now but you can't possibly blame him for all the losses. I've seen countless games where XBOCT wins his lane solo when the supports are constantly moving around ganking other lanes and then contributes to fights but Funn1k already fed offlane a little bit too much and hasn't got the items or Dendi is just getting wrecked mid by ganks. I wouldn't go as far as to blame any individual person on the team, I think they all have their share of fails so they need to get it together and start winning."
Did I say he was the sole reason? No, but I did say he was the weakest link.
Playing on TI4 makes you do things wrong just by beign exited.
People look at you, people expect you to be good and not to make mistakes.
I'd love to see any of you who thinks "XBOCT" is bad or noob come and play on his place on TI4 vs VG gaming, Newbee or some other teams that went to TI4.
It's just funny when pub-players think that it's all about skill.
ITS NOT!
Dendi said once that. It's about so many things on big events, not only about skill-teamwork.
the only western team who had practice vs chinese teams prior to TI was Liquid (and that was against DK who tends to play a more western style of dota now)
A lot of it just comes down to dumb luck, getting a haste rune at the right time, maybe a lucky proc on something etc. Those can be game changers. I don't think there's a significant skill difference between any of the top teams. One just happens to play/draft a tiny bit better that day.
Na'Vi didn't practice at all, they never do. For the past TIs they practiced in the time they had between groupstages and main event. They go unprepared, practice some strategies on the go and stomp on their way up. This time they did the same, but with the growing competition it wasn't enough.
At least that is what Puppey, KKY and XBOCT have said in several interviews.
^ Are you sure? I've heard them say it too before other TIs, but not this one because I haven't seen any interviews with them. If that's correct then it might explain why they did so poorly this year because I've heard from Akke or EE that they couldn't scrim against each other when they got to Seattle because the conditions for that were wrong. I remember in TI2 or TI3 Na'Vi wasn't looking too strong coming into the group stage but their boot camp really helped out. So that might be what happened this year, they didn't get to play other teams enough until they got to the real thing.
@Sampson
I believe C9 participated in some Chinese tournament and EG played at least a few more games because they stayed in tournaments longer but for the most part you're probably right.
there was a massive difference in team skill between the top 4 compared to the top 8. The individual skill level of players between the teams was very similar(Put some of Mouse Sports members on any of the top 4 teams without taking synergy into account they would still be a top 4 team)
@Oleksandr
that is complete bullshit there is no team going to TI that did not practice at all so I wont even bother commenting on that (the team has no choice on the matter they have management and bosses that make them work). Every team going to TI was unprepared it is just the nature of the event.
@Steror
you are right I forgot about C9, this is prob where they learned a few of their pocket strats to deal with with the deathball (their bounty hunter strat)
^
Uh, yeah, let's trust the random guy in the internet instead of the guy who actually plays for the team we're talking about. ROFL.
Even if they were forced to play by their organization, that doesn't mean they have an effective practice.
http://youtu.be/ysvoEzt32-w?list=UU-bXlo2JKw9pjM0V0wmGrGA At 4:00 LoH talks about their FIRST practice at TI, after groupstages. Na'Vi has said several times that this is what they do (and that'd explain their shitty groupstage performances everytime).
Liquid lost motivation when they started playing poorly, that is kinda how it works
'comfort with the new meta and new heroes.'
because they can not adapt means that they are not good players, every team is playing the exact same game no team has a advantage over another
'Even if they were forced to play by their organization, that doesn't mean they have an effective practice.'
typical fanboy bullshit, if they can not practice effectively as a team then they are not a very good team
'and that'd explain their shitty groupstage performances everytime'
They got out of the group stages and STILL got stomped (c9 cherry picked them because they knew NaVi was a weak team)
Team DK could not get any teams in the whole country to scrim with them and they did fine.
and last but not least
Just because Puppey makes excuses for his teams poor performance does not make it true, it is not like NaVi went into TI as strong team(saving strats for Ti5????)
How am I being fanboy ROFL.
All I'm saying (as well as LoH, Puppey and other Na'Vi members) is that they didn't practice, just like every other year, but this time it didn't work for them because of the greater competition compared to other TIs.
And hence we can conclude that a mix of factors including unstable political conditions back at home, lack of practice, lack of interest, a relatively new meta that does not suit their style of play, age, wrong drafting etc. have all brought about the downfall of NA'VI as a team. However they certainly have the skill and experience to bounce back from this slump in form and give us the kind of dota they have been giving us in the past. With this I would like to thank you all for your deep insights and your analysis of the game and for sharing them so freely and declare this thread as closed
Hence we can conclude that a mix of factors including unstable political conditions back at home , a new meta that does not suit their style of play, lack of interest, age, poor drafting, lack of practice etc have caused the downfall of NA'VI as a team. However they surely have the skills and the experience to bounce back from this slump in form and give us some very high quality dota like they have given us in the past. "Born to win"
^ you realize that if any of those 'reasons' are true NaVi will just be disbanded
lets say for one seconds I agreed with all of the points
this is how sponsors will see NaVi
'a new meta that does not suit their style of play'
if they cant adapt to the constant changing dota 2 meta it is a bad investment
'lack of interest'
if they have a lack of interest to win it is a bad investment
'age'
if age is hindering their results they will only be getting worse
'poor drafting'
this can be worked on
'lack of practice'
they are paid to compete and that requires practice (they knew well before TI that other teams where destroying them and if they choose not practice they cheating their sponsors)
There is no situation where the current NaVi will exist anymore because they either
dont care about competitive dota anymore
or
are no longer good enough to compete at the top level (and with how dota 2 tournaments are structured only the top teams survive)
There are multiple different reasons, Old doesn't have too much to do with it. The meta was kind of a wishy washy subject, they picked a lot of odd picks and I don't think they cared about the meta. They were meta-less and it might of been from lack of Dota enthusiasm but who knows. However, I'm surprised no one brought up the way the internationals were set up. Less games, less days, and more punishing for losing and more rewarding for winning. Na'vi is a team that is pretty well known for coming back from the loser bracket.
However, when you get to this level of dota a lot of it does have to do with motivation and attitude towards winning. But to me, the game was too rigorous and the prize pool was too high, so everyone was super serious and strict and there was no breathing room for redeeming matches and less change to try pocket strats.
They still won half a million dollars. I think they'll be back, that's too much money to not try again.
And saving strats for next year? Meta will change by then as it always does. Who knows they might come out on top if it switches back to their preferred play style.
if you look at it based of prior history unless you are like top 3 your team is pretty much gone (I think Fnatic is one of the few exceptions). NaVi lasted a long time due to their high rankings in prior TIs
I think in a few weeks NaVi may have a roster change. I watched the interview with ZeroGravity while being half asleep and well, I remember him saying two weeks and he couldn't say much about it.
All those rumors about Kuroky and Notail and friends may even be true. Heck Puppeh and Kuroky might not even be in NaVi anymore. I'm sure NaVi can't really let their most recognized player go either, he brings in the money anyway, right? ;)
results bring in the money, do you know how hated EE was before c9 started doing fairly well (he still isnt liked all that much but its a little less now)
^ If I get the interview in which pros are saying that pretty much outside of top 3 you will see massive roster changes/ disbands will shut the fuck up?
I would like some confirmation before I go sift through youtube
Nah, C9 ain't disbanding. It's not about where you place, it's about how you perform. Look at LGD. Nobody expected them to even be top 10, but they managed to place 6th. So should they disband? No, because they did better than most people expected from them.
basically you where saying people here where not qualified to talk about pro scene, so I am willing to get pros to agree with my statement in interviews.
My point is that just because you are not a pro it does not mean you do not have any insight on the pro scene
wat, i still dont get it..
basically my post want referring to anyone in particular, just people generally talking out of their asses.
that's an observation, you may not like it or agree with it but when I read some of the posts explain the 'reasons' it makes me wanna facepalm. hence my sarcastic remark.
"cmon defining that XBOCT juke as "simply walking into the trees" is a bit too much. you may not like the guy and i dont care about it, but dont try to make that fucking juke look simply.. he was getting ganked by 3 guys, ended up killing two of them and not giving away a firstblood
if it was Hao in his skin, for example, he would bait and right click io to death while he would be killed faster than he could be kill any of them
that was a fucking brilliant play, you make it sound like easy to "run into the trees" with 3 fucking heroes chasing you at lvl2.. he waited until the very least seconds to pop up his ulti which made he get the kills, most ppl would just panic and throw their stun ASAP"
See this is that na'vi fan stuff. Here watch the play again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VyfoESxKzE
He starts channeling concoction just before the stun lands, as soon as the stun is over he drops acid spray and throws the stun immediately. Waiting? I think not. And the only reason he survived for as long as he did? Watch how many times his shield procs the block. And you don't think alliance kills themselves when they dive under tower without a creep wave, eating tower hits the entire time? Sure he goes into a slightly uncommon hide away slot, but his stun was off cooldown by the time they go and dive him again, and he throws it as soon as he gets vision on bulldog again. For the record, neither of these stuns were max duration or damage, first one released with 3 seconds to go and 2nd one released with 4 seconds to go(this being the old duration, that means 1 and 2 seconds away from max duration, respectively).
Now the 2nd play? Alliance kills themselves again. If wisp doesn't tether breaking all the trees, NONE of them would have died. And again he releases the stun with 4 seconds to go, and rng was against alliance with a 1 second chaos stun.
He did nothing really special in either play, and quite frankly, they're common sights even in the 3k bracket.
@Dipshit "He did nothing really special in either play, and quite frankly, they're common sights even in the 3k bracket."
Implying you play in 3k bracket, wp.
XBOCT definitely isn't a top tier player right now but you can't possibly blame him for all the losses. I've seen countless games where XBOCT wins his lane solo when the supports are constantly moving around ganking other lanes and then contributes to fights but Funn1k already fed offlane a little bit too much and hasn't got the items or Dendi is just getting wrecked mid by ganks. I wouldn't go as far as to blame any individual person on the team, I think they all have their share of fails so they need to get it together and start winning.
"Implying you play in 3k bracket, wp."
Implying that mentioning a bracket means you play in it, wp.
"XBOCT definitely isn't a top tier player right now but you can't possibly blame him for all the losses. I've seen countless games where XBOCT wins his lane solo when the supports are constantly moving around ganking other lanes and then contributes to fights but Funn1k already fed offlane a little bit too much and hasn't got the items or Dendi is just getting wrecked mid by ganks. I wouldn't go as far as to blame any individual person on the team, I think they all have their share of fails so they need to get it together and start winning."
Did I say he was the sole reason? No, but I did say he was the weakest link.
^
I wouldn't say he's the weakest link. Sure, he fucks up things a lot of times, but their team composition and playstyle allow(ed) him to do so.
Their weakest point atm is their lack of motivation and practice.
NaVi had loads of practice....my god these NaVi fanboys are soo obnoxious
@Dipshit
I didn't say it means you play in 3k.
verb (used with object), im·plied, im·ply·ing.
1. to indicate or s̲u̲g̲g̲e̲s̲t̲ without being explicitly stated: His words implied a lack of faith.
@S-God ✔
I believe they had lots of practice against Na'Vi.US and maybe other western teams but I doubt they ever played against Chinese.
ti1 - 1st place
ti2 - 2nd place
ti3 - shoud have been 4th or so without pudge+chen combo
ti4 - 8th place
ti5 - 16th place
@Zenoth
Loved your analysis
Playing on TI4 makes you do things wrong just by beign exited.
People look at you, people expect you to be good and not to make mistakes.
I'd love to see any of you who thinks "XBOCT" is bad or noob come and play on his place on TI4 vs VG gaming, Newbee or some other teams that went to TI4.
It's just funny when pub-players think that it's all about skill.
ITS NOT!
Dendi said once that. It's about so many things on big events, not only about skill-teamwork.
@Steror
the only western team who had practice vs chinese teams prior to TI was Liquid (and that was against DK who tends to play a more western style of dota now)
A lot of it just comes down to dumb luck, getting a haste rune at the right time, maybe a lucky proc on something etc. Those can be game changers. I don't think there's a significant skill difference between any of the top teams. One just happens to play/draft a tiny bit better that day.
Na'Vi didn't practice at all, they never do. For the past TIs they practiced in the time they had between groupstages and main event. They go unprepared, practice some strategies on the go and stomp on their way up. This time they did the same, but with the growing competition it wasn't enough.
At least that is what Puppey, KKY and XBOCT have said in several interviews.
^ Are you sure? I've heard them say it too before other TIs, but not this one because I haven't seen any interviews with them. If that's correct then it might explain why they did so poorly this year because I've heard from Akke or EE that they couldn't scrim against each other when they got to Seattle because the conditions for that were wrong. I remember in TI2 or TI3 Na'Vi wasn't looking too strong coming into the group stage but their boot camp really helped out. So that might be what happened this year, they didn't get to play other teams enough until they got to the real thing.
@Sampson
I believe C9 participated in some Chinese tournament and EG played at least a few more games because they stayed in tournaments longer but for the most part you're probably right.
@Mark
there was a massive difference in team skill between the top 4 compared to the top 8. The individual skill level of players between the teams was very similar(Put some of Mouse Sports members on any of the top 4 teams without taking synergy into account they would still be a top 4 team)
@Oleksandr
that is complete bullshit there is no team going to TI that did not practice at all so I wont even bother commenting on that (the team has no choice on the matter they have management and bosses that make them work). Every team going to TI was unprepared it is just the nature of the event.
@Steror
you are right I forgot about C9, this is prob where they learned a few of their pocket strats to deal with with the deathball (their bounty hunter strat)
^
Uh, yeah, let's trust the random guy in the internet instead of the guy who actually plays for the team we're talking about. ROFL.
Even if they were forced to play by their organization, that doesn't mean they have an effective practice.
http://youtu.be/ysvoEzt32-w?list=UU-bXlo2JKw9pjM0V0wmGrGA
At 4:00 LoH talks about their FIRST practice at TI, after groupstages. Na'Vi has said several times that this is what they do (and that'd explain their shitty groupstage performances everytime).
http://youtu.be/Qsm9RVDi57c?list=UU-bXlo2JKw9pjM0V0wmGrGA
Puppey talking about their lack of practice, motivation and comfort with the new meta and new heroes.
'lack of practice' /= no practice
TONS of teams had a lack of practice
'motivation'
Liquid lost motivation when they started playing poorly, that is kinda how it works
'comfort with the new meta and new heroes.'
because they can not adapt means that they are not good players, every team is playing the exact same game no team has a advantage over another
'Even if they were forced to play by their organization, that doesn't mean they have an effective practice.'
typical fanboy bullshit, if they can not practice effectively as a team then they are not a very good team
'and that'd explain their shitty groupstage performances everytime'
They got out of the group stages and STILL got stomped (c9 cherry picked them because they knew NaVi was a weak team)
Team DK could not get any teams in the whole country to scrim with them and they did fine.
and last but not least
Just because Puppey makes excuses for his teams poor performance does not make it true, it is not like NaVi went into TI as strong team(saving strats for Ti5????)
You NaVi fanboys are soo delusional it is sad.
How am I being fanboy ROFL.
All I'm saying (as well as LoH, Puppey and other Na'Vi members) is that they didn't practice, just like every other year, but this time it didn't work for them because of the greater competition compared to other TIs.
Loh, zaebal, idi nahuy eblane ebanii, uyebek blyad, mamu ebal.
I heard through the grapevine that xboct refuses to practice to spite puppey >.>
And hence we can conclude that a mix of factors including unstable political conditions back at home, lack of practice, lack of interest, a relatively new meta that does not suit their style of play, age, wrong drafting etc. have all brought about the downfall of NA'VI as a team. However they certainly have the skill and experience to bounce back from this slump in form and give us the kind of dota they have been giving us in the past. With this I would like to thank you all for your deep insights and your analysis of the game and for sharing them so freely and declare this thread as closed
Hence we can conclude that a mix of factors including unstable political conditions back at home , a new meta that does not suit their style of play, lack of interest, age, poor drafting, lack of practice etc have caused the downfall of NA'VI as a team. However they surely have the skills and the experience to bounce back from this slump in form and give us some very high quality dota like they have given us in the past. "Born to win"
^ you realize that if any of those 'reasons' are true NaVi will just be disbanded
lets say for one seconds I agreed with all of the points
this is how sponsors will see NaVi
'a new meta that does not suit their style of play'
if they cant adapt to the constant changing dota 2 meta it is a bad investment
'lack of interest'
if they have a lack of interest to win it is a bad investment
'age'
if age is hindering their results they will only be getting worse
'poor drafting'
this can be worked on
'lack of practice'
they are paid to compete and that requires practice (they knew well before TI that other teams where destroying them and if they choose not practice they cheating their sponsors)
There is no situation where the current NaVi will exist anymore because they either
dont care about competitive dota anymore
or
are no longer good enough to compete at the top level (and with how dota 2 tournaments are structured only the top teams survive)
There are multiple different reasons, Old doesn't have too much to do with it. The meta was kind of a wishy washy subject, they picked a lot of odd picks and I don't think they cared about the meta. They were meta-less and it might of been from lack of Dota enthusiasm but who knows. However, I'm surprised no one brought up the way the internationals were set up. Less games, less days, and more punishing for losing and more rewarding for winning. Na'vi is a team that is pretty well known for coming back from the loser bracket.
However, when you get to this level of dota a lot of it does have to do with motivation and attitude towards winning. But to me, the game was too rigorous and the prize pool was too high, so everyone was super serious and strict and there was no breathing room for redeeming matches and less change to try pocket strats.
They still won half a million dollars. I think they'll be back, that's too much money to not try again.
And saving strats for next year? Meta will change by then as it always does. Who knows they might come out on top if it switches back to their preferred play style.
if you look at it based of prior history unless you are like top 3 your team is pretty much gone (I think Fnatic is one of the few exceptions). NaVi lasted a long time due to their high rankings in prior TIs
I think in a few weeks NaVi may have a roster change. I watched the interview with ZeroGravity while being half asleep and well, I remember him saying two weeks and he couldn't say much about it.
All those rumors about Kuroky and Notail and friends may even be true. Heck Puppeh and Kuroky might not even be in NaVi anymore. I'm sure NaVi can't really let their most recognized player go either, he brings in the money anyway, right? ;)
results bring in the money, do you know how hated EE was before c9 started doing fairly well (he still isnt liked all that much but its a little less now)
this just in, navi gonna get rid of its rooster and get 5 players from dotabuff.
everyone here is more knowledgeable anyways.
^ If I get the interview in which pros are saying that pretty much outside of top 3 you will see massive roster changes/ disbands will shut the fuck up?
I would like some confirmation before I go sift through youtube
Nah, C9 ain't disbanding. It's not about where you place, it's about how you perform. Look at LGD. Nobody expected them to even be top 10, but they managed to place 6th. So should they disband? No, because they did better than most people expected from them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLnaWU4CTbI
around the 7min mark
read your post 3 times now sampson, still cant figure out what you were trying to say..
He forgot a "you" before the "shut the fuck up?"
basically you where saying people here where not qualified to talk about pro scene, so I am willing to get pros to agree with my statement in interviews.
My point is that just because you are not a pro it does not mean you do not have any insight on the pro scene
Sam#2 is right (that was a dyslexic slip -_-)
wat, i still dont get it..
basically my post want referring to anyone in particular, just people generally talking out of their asses.
that's an observation, you may not like it or agree with it but when I read some of the posts explain the 'reasons' it makes me wanna facepalm. hence my sarcastic remark.