General Discussion

General DiscussionWhat the hell happened to NA'VI

What the hell happened to NA'VI in General Discussion
blitzkreig

    They were one of the best teams in dota, constantly out drafting and out playing their opponents. However in the past 3-4 months they seem so mediocre. Dendi one of the best and flashy mid players earlier, now feeds in mid; xboct one of the best carries now goes for silly picks like tide etc. Are NA'VI done with dota? What a heart break to see them crash out of ti4 but they deserved it.

    Z__

      IMO they don't care about the game as much as they did before. Therefore they don't play that often, hence they don't understand the patches, they don't draft well enough and they lack coordination.
      On top of that, this year the teams practiced MUCH more than before because of the bigger prize pool, which means more competition.

      Vaikiss`742.

        disband

        Timberrino
          This comment was deleted
          blitzkreig

            I mean they deserved to crash out of ti4

            Timberrino

              Sorry, was my bad.

              I'm 14k mmr let me mid

                Mmm... u stupid?
                They did well!

                eXcel

                  It kinda happens, they're getting older as a team (especially XBOCT, I think he's 26?) they've been at the top for a long time, their minds are probably drifting.

                  blitzkreig

                    but its kinda sudden I remember them playing quite well, actually dominating in their showdowns with alliance after ti3. I guess this downfall happened with the 6.8 patch and onwards

                    LLLLLLL

                      isn't xboct the youngest ?

                      blitzkreig

                        if navi doesn't go to the final that means they have not done well

                        I'm 14k mmr let me mid

                          oh sorry! only the finalist did it well men

                          waku waku

                            i guess they still have't spend all of the money they earned when they won

                            blitzkreig

                              Shame it was fun to watch them. Remember how they countered the naga with a juggernaut and bkb enigma black hole at ti2

                              salt enjoyer

                                NA'VI were always and still are good but there is just better now so they will have to work for it. I think that perhaps a lot of their strategies and the way they view/play the game may be a little outdated in light of other teams. Like I said before there were at first only a handful of teams and they all new how each one played, but now there are newer squads with newer tactics and I think NA'VI will adapt in time.

                                blitzkreig

                                  hope so

                                  salt enjoyer

                                    Yeah I mean they're super experienced and should pick up, but honestly all the current top teams are teams that have undergone a meta change, or roster change which mixes things up for teams that are used to playing the same players and playstyles.

                                    They have the experience to win again but they lack the flair and daring that other teams currently have so they can suffer sometimes.

                                    Vaikiss`742.

                                      disband

                                      Zenoth

                                        it seems like very few teams can properly grasp the meta now

                                        traditionally it has been a rock-paper-scissors relation between Split-Pushing>Deathball>Pickoffs>Split-Pushing

                                        During TI3 Alliance found their niche in which they would utilize the map too damn efficiently such that they could Deathball by 20-25 minute; if it failed they would then resort to split-pushing (very effectively) later on. With the exception of several games (e.g. S4 Nightstalker), they mostly conformed to this style, and no other team had an answer for them. They couldn't out-split the early Deathball due to Alliance's efficiency with the map and resulting gold/exp advantage, they couldn't win a Deathball nor did the [A] squad give opportunities to be picked off.

                                        Now the Deathball meta appears to be the strongest when properly executed, although the way VG plays it is heavily reliant on coming out of the laning stage ahead. You will notice they choose their lanes very specifically - when putting Razor against TA (wtf pick EG)? they will play the aggressive tri-lane to prevent the supports from rotating mid or farming a fast blink in the jungle (e.g. sand king). By the time the Deathball comes the opponents are too under-farmed and under-leveled to split push, their line-up has the superior pick-off power with global spells while being able to split-push if it ever comes to that as well. The only times they lost was when their deathball was stopped by a stronger-five man lineup, e.g. Universe Void landing clutch Chronos the entire game - this is the reason VG bans Tide nearly every game.

                                        But the top teams of the past are still caught up in their "trademark" styles - Alliance resorts to split pushing too much, Navi keeps switching shit up without any consistent results, and IG hasn't adapted well to the Deathball meta. Being slow to adapt is fatal in a game as volatile as Dota.

                                        This comment was edited
                                        blitzkreig

                                          I think the unconventional picks in ti4 also caught these teams off Gaurd. I mean how many times did u see razor, skywrath, shadow shaman picked up so many times in a tournament

                                          Totentanz to The King: M ...

                                            They just got old. When you first start a game, you are very excited. You want to prove everyone that you can get better. But they have been to a TI final 3 times, they don't care about it that much anymore. They lack the enthusiasm to play the game.

                                            Vaikiss`742.

                                              cuz winning 5mil$ is not exciting

                                              Phenomenal

                                                I agree with Sam here. They lack motivation and enthousiasm for the game and thats why they simply dont put so much time and effort in it, which results them not being in the absolute top. They're still great team all considered, just not top tier anymore atm.

                                                Totentanz to The King: M ...

                                                  It's not only about the money. I'm sure they have plenty of it.

                                                  sano

                                                    Gotta agree with everything Zenoth said

                                                    Born

                                                      bring back artstyle with pudge and slardar picks and crazy ruski aggression.

                                                      Dunning-Kruger-Doto

                                                        Xboct ist just an underwhelming carry on the top top lvl. Last year favoured many carries, esp. alche/gyro, that fit xboct playstyle. The current meta carries are not quite as aggressive in pickoff sitauations. Xboct is not the type of guy to give a big teamfightspell like chrono, cause he will simply fuck it up. I think navi should (will) drop xboct and pick up a better carry.

                                                        The current midlaners are not so heavy gank oriented, wich does not fit into dendis playstyle. But he has at least the skills, to stay on top.

                                                        Alliance just fooled arround too much on drafts, and did not play their way to play (rat doto). Nearly every team banned np against them, so why not give bulldogg every damn game his bear and lycan to loda. So they can ratpush, what they are best at. Isntead they tried shit like carry veno. In the games against EG and Navi Alliance showed, that they still got it.

                                                        blitzkreig

                                                          even xboct has good skills. he is a good farmer however his dives and throws are a difficult to digest

                                                          verminski_

                                                            I think it's the fact (which has been said) that they are old, and don't care that much.

                                                            Also, let's not forget that Ukraine now is in turmoil. Frankly I'd have a realy hard time to concentrate if I had the knoledge, that my country is getting fucked by Putin.

                                                            I dno, nobody seems to talk about it.

                                                            Dipshit

                                                              ^they don't care.

                                                              also if you describe xboct's plays as "dives and throws are a difficult to digest" then he does not have "good skills". Quite frankly xboct has always been a bad player. In most games it came down to puppey/dendi carrying the game on their shoulders while xboct farmed for 30 minutes straight before finally showing up. Xboct is a mediocre player. Just about anyone can perform "well enough" when you're left alone for 30 minutes. Hell and that "amazing" play by xboct last year where he "takes out" the alliance gank squad twice? He didn't really do anything but run in a circle and juke into a tree, alliance pretty much killed themselves for him. Now that the meta doesn't allow you to farm for 30 minutes, his mediocrity and limited hero pool are showing.

                                                              Noir

                                                                they are a good team, a bit overrated in my opinion but they could eventually compete with top teams like zephyr/vp

                                                                Totentanz to The King: M ...

                                                                  Even if XBOCT is bad, Na'Vi still won a TI and came second twice with him. So it shouldn't be that big of a problem for them to carry him. Also look at EG. Even with mason being totally useless in almost every game, they manage to stay on top of their game.

                                                                  Flyingpigs

                                                                    zenoth i always love your analysis. so smart

                                                                    Vaeldiithia

                                                                      @Dipshit, how exactly can you "not care" about the fact your family and friends can die any time? I mean, its always true, but now they have a lot higher risk of it. Its not really possible to not care. Ofc they have to say in interviews if they are asked that they dont care, they dont want to go into politics, but you just cant "dont care". Their downfall started with those things getting out of control.

                                                                      Im not saying they arent just tired of dota, but you cant just say it for a fact that they dont care about whats happening around them.

                                                                      Metallicize

                                                                        PUTINERINO SO MUCHO FAGGERINO>PLS REPORT PUTIN

                                                                        Dire Wolf

                                                                          I thought their drafts were kinda meh.

                                                                          Since when is 25 old? At 25 you suddenly stop loving video games or lose all your hand eye cooridination? I could see it being very difficult for someone 25 to get into professional dota but once there that doesn't seem very old to me.

                                                                          Quick maffs

                                                                            Disband

                                                                            Quick maffs

                                                                              btw TI over

                                                                              GIVE SING STREAM

                                                                              S-God ✔

                                                                                I love how NaVi fans just cant admit that there are better people now. Better teams come into the scene replacing the old top teams which is why Alliance got curb stomped too

                                                                                Dire Wolf

                                                                                  The amount of competitive players has probably doubled in the past year wouldn't you say? Money is way bigger, player base is far larger, more competition, it's impossible to stay on top. Does anyone think george mikan would stand a chance against the spurs and lakers of the 2000s?

                                                                                  Osiris

                                                                                    I thought their drafts were kinda meh.

                                                                                    Since when is 25 old? At 25 you suddenly stop loving video games or lose all your hand eye cooridination? I could see it being very difficult for someone 25 to get into professional dota but once there that doesn't seem very old to me.

                                                                                    because i guess your supposed to stop playing games and come home from work and only watch tv when your 25+ its not like we have been gaming since the age of 10 or anything :D (me being 27)

                                                                                    Sugar Show

                                                                                      na'vi u drunk, go home.

                                                                                      Dipshit

                                                                                        "@Dipshit, how exactly can you "not care" about the fact your family and friends can die any time? I mean, its always true, but now they have a lot higher risk of it. Its not really possible to not care. Ofc they have to say in interviews if they are asked that they dont care, they dont want to go into politics, but you just cant "dont care". Their downfall started with those things getting out of control.

                                                                                        Im not saying they arent just tired of dota, but you cant just say it for a fact that they dont care about whats happening around them."

                                                                                        All I know is that the one time Dendi was asked about it he simply joked about it(then again I guess Dendi jokes about everything so /shrug).

                                                                                        "Since when is 25 old? At 25 you suddenly stop loving video games or lose all your hand eye cooridination? I could see it being very difficult for someone 25 to get into professional dota but once there that doesn't seem very old to me."
                                                                                        Didn't you know? Once you turn 25 you become an adult and must give up childish things. (dat oldschool mentality mang) It's been scientifically proven that there is no difference in reaction time from age deterioration between 20 and 35(far wider range than just 17-25 eh?).

                                                                                        Dire Wolf

                                                                                          That's what I'm saying, I completely understand why most pro dota players are under 25 because the scene is new and for you to have the time and inclination to get into it you are probably in your late teens/early 20s. So someone who started right when dota/dota2 started getting huge is probably now just mid 20s. It'd be pretty difficult for anyone post 25 to give up their whole life to become a competitive gamer at that point. But I see no reason why someone who already is a top level pro would need to give it up in their late 20s/30s unless they seriously want to have a family. That's assuming they make enough money to not need a second job, which I'm sure the na'vi guys have made that much. Saying they're old seems like silly reasoning.

                                                                                          MadBeast

                                                                                            Na'vi start all there Bo3 with retards draft, they would have done better with serious drafts.

                                                                                            Give to five 3k mmr players DK or Newbee draft and give to five 5k mmr players na'vi draft, the 5k will lose everytime, you can't except to win games with retard draft like they did.

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                                                                                            Dipshit

                                                                                              ^you're either overestimating 3k players or underestimating 5k players. Pick one or both.

                                                                                              S-God ✔

                                                                                                they where playing serious every single game. People thought EG's 4 1/2 core draft was them messing around, same with c9's support BH but if you watched their interviews u would know that they tested these drafts out and believed that it would work. Just because a unique draft did not = a win does not mean they where just randomly picking heroes.

                                                                                                S-God ✔

                                                                                                  HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH I am only 4k and 3k team could legit draft my team for me and my team would still prob win more then we lose :P

                                                                                                  Bigmane

                                                                                                    guys remember MyM was once the best team in dota

                                                                                                    sleave

                                                                                                      cmon defining that XBOCT juke as "simply walking into the trees" is a bit too much. you may not like the guy and i dont care about it, but dont try to make that fucking juke look simply.. he was getting ganked by 3 guys, ended up killing two of them and not giving away a firstblood

                                                                                                      if it was Hao in his skin, for example, he would bait and right click io to death while he would be killed faster than he could be kill any of them
                                                                                                      that was a fucking brilliant play, you make it sound like easy to "run into the trees" with 3 fucking heroes chasing you at lvl2.. he waited until the very least seconds to pop up his ulti which made he get the kills, most ppl would just panic and throw their stun ASAP

                                                                                                      @Easyzonogoud nope, the 5k will win every single fucking time
                                                                                                      DragonFist, for example, plays every single match as TA vs a fucking Viper, which counters him. I think he wins his lane 9 out of 10 times even so, because he has superior mechanical skills, because he is a fucking insane 7k player while he is facing some 4.8~5.5k guys. You are probably not 5k (neither am I, but i have played with some) so you don't know how enormous is the skill difference between a 3k and a 5k. You can draft 5 certain heroes for a 5k team and give the 3k team a draft that counters the 5k heroes in every single way, the 5k team will win 9/10 times, I'm pretty sure.

                                                                                                      You can give a 5 carry team for the 5k guys and a perfectly all-around balanced team for the 3k, the outcome will be the same: 5k guys will crush no matter what. Juice has pretty much shown it by himself on his experiment. His team was feeding left and right, and the guy could keep up and win 95% of his games from 2.8k to 4.5k (from there he managed to win "only" 88%). He was basically playing 1v9 every game and he won every single out there, just because he was superior.

                                                                                                      Same would happen with the 5k guys, they have way better awareness, a much superior mechanical skill, they know how to itemize efficiently, they know how to use all resources around the map, bla bla bla.. they would win every single time no matter what the picks were

                                                                                                      I'M MID| FUCK OFF NOOBS

                                                                                                        navi, the most over rated team ever. if you take a look at their activity since d1, you will see they arent that good and failed many times. ti4 isnt their 1st fail. they are good, but not that good as every1 thinks