As support player I hate when I zone the enemy offlaner and the carry push every creep wave in tower. Also hate when the carry is like a creep that farms creeps because he does not skill his nukes.
I agree with dorkly, expecting a 3k player to successfully pull of a smoke gank is ludicrous. First said support needs to know how to set it up, but secondly the lane being ganked has to know to cooridinate and participate. Why I never smoke gank is because I'll ping and say ok I'm coming to gank, and the other lane will hang back and my smoke will expire or I'll init the gank and they won't come and I'll die. In both cases I should've just stayed in my lane harassing. Smoke ganks in pubs pretty much only work if you do a team smoke and then gank their jungle or something.
It's the same reason I also hate tri lanes. Tri lanes put you at an xp disadvantage if you don't score at least a couple kills and in general players are so uncooridinated that you can't score kills vs a typical off laner. Sure vs a lich or necrophos or some off laner without a good escape you might, but vs a mirana or timber you need to sync your stuns. So many times the tri lanes overlap disables or miss them altogether or are too busy pulling camps to score the kills. One ward on the camp and one to see when the puller is coming into lane and it's gg tri lane ineffective. People always say yeah but we got the carry free farm- vs a solo off lane a duo could accomplish the same thing.
All I really hope for when playing a carry is for my supports to ward competently, deward when it's an egregious spot like I'm trying to kill ancients and suddenly their entire team shows up or they are launching mirana arrows into our jungle, shit like that, you don't have to deward every single rune, and then to protect me in lane from dying and harass a bit so we don't get behind. That's it, I will farm well enough to win the game later, you don't have to score a ton of kills just keep us farming.
So you really expect a 4k to know all this stuff ? you seriously do ?
A carry autoatacking the lane is something way more basic, playing that good as a support is something that i would only expect 4.5 k players or 5 k players do be able to do, or someone playing support all his life.
I say this because i know YOU are not able to do that, as i am not able too.
And no, i would not flame a carry auto atacking the lane, i would ask them if they could stop autoatacking, no need to flame.
Would you expect a 3k carry player to have 70 lh at 50 min ? i woudnt, the same for a support i woudnt expect them to be able to do all that stuff.
Yeah, making a long list of the things you expect support to do without help is like saying I expect carrys to get 600 gpm every game, never miss a last hit, deny on their own and never die in lane with no help from their support. Cus a good carry ought to be able to handle all that by themselves right?
When supporting <3k players usually I die like a retard because I initiate and they go back. Or jump in too late. And sucks because I'm the one who feeds. Carrying lower mmr players is ok, but supporting them sucks.
bullshit, I wish I kept the old logs about how much you flame your friends.
look at the list this is not advanced tactics and most who plays at 4k as a support knows these or else gets completely flamed. It is the people who randomly pick a support and have no idea what they are doing that ruin it for the rest of them.
Not only warding the river? that is not advanced shit
Not afking in lane? that is not advanced shit
Knowing what smoke does? that is not advanced shit
I could go on but I think I made my point
You and I both know how awful you are playing support so it might seem like advanced stuff but this is pretty basic stuff for someone who plays support consistently
Like i understand why sampson is doing this, there is a lot of support players who blame they fucking team for losing because they think did they job ( buy 1 ward and courrier ), but i think we all got the point already.
Please understand that i am not saying this because of me, i am awful as support in any lvl ( 2k 3k or 4k ), but i really disagree about a 4k support player being able to be really good at the role, i really do.
a 4 k player in my opinion its not always the guy who looks guides or youtube stuffs, 4k is too low of a braket.
btw, i flame my friends, read that again, MY FRIENDS.
Can we have a feature where you append your mmr to the end of every post so I know which ones to ignore? Reading is so hard
LOL. yes, hard to know what bracket people are arguing about. I always have some users I take with a grain of salt because I don't really agree with their posts.
3k supports often know how to pull, just not always when. Some do use smoke for ganking (one of my friends will frequently get smoke/sentries and have the other support get chicken and wards). Many supports in the 3k range have *some* of the skills Sampson expects supports to have. The problem with lower MMR supports is they rarely have all or even most of the skills needed. Sure, some will pull the small camp. Some will even stack it first. Few will stack the small camp and pull the creep wave through to the medium camp.
Knowing when to gank, coordinating ganks, using smoke rather than running under the most commonly warded spots, timing stuns, etc. are all skills supports should have. It's simply a factor of more skills/knowledge = better (almost always).
It's the same with any position, in my opinion. Carries in lower MMRs are generally worse at last hitting, positioning, timing, and one huge factor is target prioritization. Lower MMRs, pubs in particular, have awful coordination and target prioritization. For example, how often do you see a carry take off running at a half health support AFTER the support popped his ult? That is worthless when the opposing team proceeds to kill all of your team.
My MMRs are both right around 3.2k-3.3k, so anything I do/know shouldn't be exceptional for 3k players. I know for a fact I do NOT support as well as I should. I honestly need to practice supporting better, even when playing with pubs. Currently I'm working on carrying, but I'm sure I'll get back to supporting eventually.
Still you need to understand that its normal for a support fuck up if the role is that hard, that its why i am telling you that there is no need to flame them if they do one or two mistakes, because being honest every roles do mistakes in this kind of braket, the carry will fail a good amount of last hits, the offlaner will probably die one or two times.
In other words, there is no need to treat supports in a better way OR in a worse way than the other roles
@RamboSalad
"I hate supports who pull and make you tank two creep waves in a row."
I hate carry who tanks creeps instead of pulling wave behind tier 1, to meet next wave of your creeps there.
"I hate supports who sit in lane with you just to deny creeps."
I hate carry who can't deny by himself.
"I hate supports who sit in lane with you soaking exp even when the enemy offlane is missing."
I hate carry who thinks that support don't need levels at all. Most supports much more powerfull at level 3. You get all the gold anyway, share some XP at least.
"I hate supports who attack the enemy offlane and pull the entire enemy creep wave onto them, ruining creep equilibrium."
It's called - "harassing".
"I hate supports who don't know how to smoke gank."
Not only supports don't know how to smoke gank.
"and the thing I hate most:
supports who don't deward the pull camp and then complain that they are dirt broke, and that they are solo support and have no gold to buy anything."
Try to buy your items faster, then run to your pull camp and prevent enemy from warding it. I hate carry who can't do something as simple as that.
@Sampson
If you'd play support, after your carry gets killed few times in a row when you try to pull, you might realize pulling is really situational in dual lanes. Also, warding enemy jungle might be dangerous if your team choose to farm your jungle instead of helping you placing the ward.
@Everyone: When I play safe lane support against a dual offlane as the lone support, what should I do? I can't zone them myself, I'm a bit iffy about pulling creeps because the carry might get dived and killed, I can't leave the lane to gank anywhere else for the same reason ... what should I do in that (not uncommon) situation? Usually I've just stayed in lane and I guess soaked up XP because I'm scared of the carry dying, but I admit that doesn't seem to work because I don't tend to win the games where I play support.
are you looking for a decent support or are you looking for Jesus? because no human person can do miracles.
If there is something so awful as the carry auto-attacking, there's not really much you can do to change his play stile.
that being said, there are lots of decent to good supports around 4k, if they don't do exactly what you want them to do, the moment you want them to do it, doesn't make them bad.
What I've found much more lacking in games is the communication between players. Most of the times people don't communicate with each other, leading to bad coordination and cooperation.
I highly suggest you start talking more and flame less, you'll be surprised what that can do for you and your games.
Now, after saying that, you will still end up with stubborn people playing their own way etc, but you really cannot change that unless you stack with 4 other people where even if there is a mistake you can clear things up or at least know it was not made on purpose.
Random is just that, random.
So, solo queue can be influenced just by a slight margin by ourselves, but that means also start playing more open minded and with respect. If you flame overall and use your "I know it all" cocky attitude you wont always go far or at least you wont go up unless maybe if you are in the pro scene.
If anyone of you, is looking to play with someone who likes support and tries to do what's correct without wanting to end every game in an insult parade, add me up. I am always willing to play a friendly game, I don't guarantee any win, but at least its a calm environment where we try our best.
Sampson, you are just proving the point dude.
That leads you to nothing.
At the end of the day, what have you gained and what have you accomplished?
EDIT:
It's like saying, I've tried cooking bread once but I'm much better at cooking meat.
Therefore, I am going to instruct a baker how to do his job even tho I've never applied too much with it and i have no clue how to come up with a good products myself because I'm not good with it
what a horrible comparison. Ask any of the support players from the forums who I played with. While I have fairly high standards what I say to supports are correct.(most of the time :P)
Saying things like, you should smoke gank instead of sitting in the lane and soaking exp and you giving the excuse 'well its hard I would rather try and get away with doing as little as possible'.
I fuck up I make mistakes and I do not always make the correct call but I do not justify doing something stupid like forgetting to grab a TP scroll to help my teammates being dived on because it 'was too much to remember'
Situation awareness. Not everyone has it. Hey, I know most of what a good support is supposed to do in a game, yet I don't do all of them because, well, I fuck up with either timing or taking advantage of the opportunities that present themselves and I seriously doubt that and missing a few of the supports' tasks is what's holding me back from 4k (3925 at the moment...damned schedules don't let me play often).
Seriously Sampdude, you won't find the supports you are looking for until you are 500 mmr higher or something to that effect. You'll find people who know every support task, but you won't find ones who can actually make them ALL in a single game is what I'm saying.
Now, if you get to 4500 or so, good luck finding a support. I've heard the 4.4k-4.9k range is almost devoid of support players :)
well if both teams dont have support players that is balanced :)
again did people actually read the list? The majority of these things are pretty basic like buying and using a smoke.......nowhere did it say you must you smoke when your opponent is at X location at Y time. This is like saying buying and using hand of midas is a advance tactic..... Things like knowing when to buy midas on luna, when to buy helm of the dominator and when to buy drums those are a bit more advanced......
The comparison is there to show you, because probably you are not noticing, how you are doing the things you do.
We might discuss if what you say is correct or not, but what I am focusing on here is the way you are doing it.
If you want to promote growth, an improvement not only for your teammates, but overall for your games, you should avoid speaking/flaming the way you yourself are saying you do. Everyone loses control from time to time, but this is rather excessive.
I might understand you get rather pissy when the guy doesn't buy a TP scroll for example, but a kind remind goes a long way compared to a flame. As Zano stated people tend to forget because the support has a lot of tasks and not everyone might be good at doing them all with the same progress time.
Some people need to do the same thing 5000 times to learn it, some need 10. It's just the way the human is.
Again, that being said, it's not probably what you say, it's the way you do it, then you make a post and complain again the same way.
Why all the rage dude? The questions are still there:
At the end of the day, what have you gained and what have you accomplished?
On an additional note, just look at the topic you've made. You've been complaining so much about other people's topics, yet you do something similar, construct your topic, put up you idea in a much more elaborate way, this brings nothing.
It's good that we managed to discuss somehow
The people who cant take harsh criticism are not the ones I want to focus on anyway. There was no complex theory that needed to be elaborated on it was mostly a public service announcement and the people who find it offensive are the ones who needed to hear it the most.
So you believe that there are no people who believe that their job as support is just to buy wards? It seems pretty egotistical that unless a thread pertains to you the thread becomes useless. You can argue that my method of relaying the information might not be the best way but it does not change the content.
And did you even read my response? I don't smoke gank in pubs because no one knows how to cooridinate and smoke ganking mid or a lane with just you as a support will get you killed. Say you're on lion. Your mid has to be on their mid's ass by the time impale wears off or it's not happening.
Fair enough, but in the vast dota2 network you won't find many of those.
As support player I hate when I zone the enemy offlaner and the carry push every creep wave in tower. Also hate when the carry is like a creep that farms creeps because he does not skill his nukes.
I agree with dorkly, expecting a 3k player to successfully pull of a smoke gank is ludicrous. First said support needs to know how to set it up, but secondly the lane being ganked has to know to cooridinate and participate. Why I never smoke gank is because I'll ping and say ok I'm coming to gank, and the other lane will hang back and my smoke will expire or I'll init the gank and they won't come and I'll die. In both cases I should've just stayed in my lane harassing. Smoke ganks in pubs pretty much only work if you do a team smoke and then gank their jungle or something.
It's the same reason I also hate tri lanes. Tri lanes put you at an xp disadvantage if you don't score at least a couple kills and in general players are so uncooridinated that you can't score kills vs a typical off laner. Sure vs a lich or necrophos or some off laner without a good escape you might, but vs a mirana or timber you need to sync your stuns. So many times the tri lanes overlap disables or miss them altogether or are too busy pulling camps to score the kills. One ward on the camp and one to see when the puller is coming into lane and it's gg tri lane ineffective. People always say yeah but we got the carry free farm- vs a solo off lane a duo could accomplish the same thing.
All I really hope for when playing a carry is for my supports to ward competently, deward when it's an egregious spot like I'm trying to kill ancients and suddenly their entire team shows up or they are launching mirana arrows into our jungle, shit like that, you don't have to deward every single rune, and then to protect me in lane from dying and harass a bit so we don't get behind. That's it, I will farm well enough to win the game later, you don't have to score a ton of kills just keep us farming.
@Sampson
So you really expect a 4k to know all this stuff ? you seriously do ?
A carry autoatacking the lane is something way more basic, playing that good as a support is something that i would only expect 4.5 k players or 5 k players do be able to do, or someone playing support all his life.
I say this because i know YOU are not able to do that, as i am not able too.
And no, i would not flame a carry auto atacking the lane, i would ask them if they could stop autoatacking, no need to flame.
Would you expect a 3k carry player to have 70 lh at 50 min ? i woudnt, the same for a support i woudnt expect them to be able to do all that stuff.
Yeah, making a long list of the things you expect support to do without help is like saying I expect carrys to get 600 gpm every game, never miss a last hit, deny on their own and never die in lane with no help from their support. Cus a good carry ought to be able to handle all that by themselves right?
When supporting <3k players usually I die like a retard because I initiate and they go back. Or jump in too late. And sucks because I'm the one who feeds. Carrying lower mmr players is ok, but supporting them sucks.
bullshit, I wish I kept the old logs about how much you flame your friends.
look at the list this is not advanced tactics and most who plays at 4k as a support knows these or else gets completely flamed. It is the people who randomly pick a support and have no idea what they are doing that ruin it for the rest of them.
Not only warding the river? that is not advanced shit
Not afking in lane? that is not advanced shit
Knowing what smoke does? that is not advanced shit
I could go on but I think I made my point
You and I both know how awful you are playing support so it might seem like advanced stuff but this is pretty basic stuff for someone who plays support consistently
Like i understand why sampson is doing this, there is a lot of support players who blame they fucking team for losing because they think did they job ( buy 1 ward and courrier ), but i think we all got the point already.
Please understand that i am not saying this because of me, i am awful as support in any lvl ( 2k 3k or 4k ), but i really disagree about a 4k support player being able to be really good at the role, i really do.
a 4 k player in my opinion its not always the guy who looks guides or youtube stuffs, 4k is too low of a braket.
btw, i flame my friends, read that again, MY FRIENDS.
@Mark
there is a huge leap between putting a ward in their jungle and not missing any last hits
Can we have a feature where you append your mmr to the end of every post so I know which ones to ignore? Reading is so hard
Can we have a feature where you append your mmr to the end of every post so I know which ones to ignore? Reading is so hard
LOL. yes, hard to know what bracket people are arguing about. I always have some users I take with a grain of salt because I don't really agree with their posts.
I play with high 2ks low 3ks MMR.
3k supports often know how to pull, just not always when. Some do use smoke for ganking (one of my friends will frequently get smoke/sentries and have the other support get chicken and wards). Many supports in the 3k range have *some* of the skills Sampson expects supports to have. The problem with lower MMR supports is they rarely have all or even most of the skills needed. Sure, some will pull the small camp. Some will even stack it first. Few will stack the small camp and pull the creep wave through to the medium camp.
Knowing when to gank, coordinating ganks, using smoke rather than running under the most commonly warded spots, timing stuns, etc. are all skills supports should have. It's simply a factor of more skills/knowledge = better (almost always).
It's the same with any position, in my opinion. Carries in lower MMRs are generally worse at last hitting, positioning, timing, and one huge factor is target prioritization. Lower MMRs, pubs in particular, have awful coordination and target prioritization. For example, how often do you see a carry take off running at a half health support AFTER the support popped his ult? That is worthless when the opposing team proceeds to kill all of your team.
My MMRs are both right around 3.2k-3.3k, so anything I do/know shouldn't be exceptional for 3k players. I know for a fact I do NOT support as well as I should. I honestly need to practice supporting better, even when playing with pubs. Currently I'm working on carrying, but I'm sure I'll get back to supporting eventually.
Peace =)
@Dorkly
by 4k MM you know the basics although you are not necessarily that good. I would not go as far as to say it is low considering 3-3.5k is about average
Still you need to understand that its normal for a support fuck up if the role is that hard, that its why i am telling you that there is no need to flame them if they do one or two mistakes, because being honest every roles do mistakes in this kind of braket, the carry will fail a good amount of last hits, the offlaner will probably die one or two times.
In other words, there is no need to treat supports in a better way OR in a worse way than the other roles
I flame shitty supports the same way I flame shitty carries
you should know that by now
@Sampson
Show us how to do it properly master! Show us one game where you play support!
mmm i guess
BUT i bet that the balance its like 65% supports 35 % carries
@RamboSalad
"I hate supports who pull and make you tank two creep waves in a row."
I hate carry who tanks creeps instead of pulling wave behind tier 1, to meet next wave of your creeps there.
"I hate supports who sit in lane with you just to deny creeps."
I hate carry who can't deny by himself.
"I hate supports who sit in lane with you soaking exp even when the enemy offlane is missing."
I hate carry who thinks that support don't need levels at all. Most supports much more powerfull at level 3. You get all the gold anyway, share some XP at least.
"I hate supports who attack the enemy offlane and pull the entire enemy creep wave onto them, ruining creep equilibrium."
It's called - "harassing".
"I hate supports who don't know how to smoke gank."
Not only supports don't know how to smoke gank.
"and the thing I hate most:
supports who don't deward the pull camp and then complain that they are dirt broke, and that they are solo support and have no gold to buy anything."
Try to buy your items faster, then run to your pull camp and prevent enemy from warding it. I hate carry who can't do something as simple as that.
^ uhoh... hope thats a troll post lol
@6_din_49
I play the role I am best at, shocking I know....
wards? whats that
@Sampson
If you'd play support, after your carry gets killed few times in a row when you try to pull, you might realize pulling is really situational in dual lanes. Also, warding enemy jungle might be dangerous if your team choose to farm your jungle instead of helping you placing the ward.
@Everyone: When I play safe lane support against a dual offlane as the lone support, what should I do? I can't zone them myself, I'm a bit iffy about pulling creeps because the carry might get dived and killed, I can't leave the lane to gank anywhere else for the same reason ... what should I do in that (not uncommon) situation? Usually I've just stayed in lane and I guess soaked up XP because I'm scared of the carry dying, but I admit that doesn't seem to work because I don't tend to win the games where I play support.
If your carry can farm, just stay there and harass. If your carry can't farm, go pull, secure runes or gank mid and let the carry take full xp.
0% farm + 100% xp > 0% farm + 50% xp.
you play it like a dual lane, how else. if you get the chance to stack, do so. otherwise just try to get the best of it.
it's not unusual that aggro offlane shits all over crappy carry and single support.
Playing good support requires the cordination of your team, which is extremely hard to get.
Still... most people have no clue how to play support.
(￣ω￣) You build battlefury duh.
i hate persons who blames support when they dont even use support heroes
Now now,
are you looking for a decent support or are you looking for Jesus? because no human person can do miracles.
If there is something so awful as the carry auto-attacking, there's not really much you can do to change his play stile.
that being said, there are lots of decent to good supports around 4k, if they don't do exactly what you want them to do, the moment you want them to do it, doesn't make them bad.
What I've found much more lacking in games is the communication between players. Most of the times people don't communicate with each other, leading to bad coordination and cooperation.
I highly suggest you start talking more and flame less, you'll be surprised what that can do for you and your games.
Now, after saying that, you will still end up with stubborn people playing their own way etc, but you really cannot change that unless you stack with 4 other people where even if there is a mistake you can clear things up or at least know it was not made on purpose.
Random is just that, random.
So, solo queue can be influenced just by a slight margin by ourselves, but that means also start playing more open minded and with respect. If you flame overall and use your "I know it all" cocky attitude you wont always go far or at least you wont go up unless maybe if you are in the pro scene.
If anyone of you, is looking to play with someone who likes support and tries to do what's correct without wanting to end every game in an insult parade, add me up. I am always willing to play a friendly game, I don't guarantee any win, but at least its a calm environment where we try our best.
i hate carries that only knows how to last hit
i
i hate people who tell me i'm bad and don't bother to explain why even if i ask them to
I hate players that lock themselves into one role and lose an understanding about the other 2/3 of the game.
^ who could that be
I hate garbage supports who complain about me telling them how to do their job. Do your job and I have no room to complain.
but u are garbage support :/
Sampson, you are just proving the point dude.
That leads you to nothing.
At the end of the day, what have you gained and what have you accomplished?
EDIT:
It's like saying, I've tried cooking bread once but I'm much better at cooking meat.
Therefore, I am going to instruct a baker how to do his job even tho I've never applied too much with it and i have no clue how to come up with a good products myself because I'm not good with it
It's rather silly
what a horrible comparison. Ask any of the support players from the forums who I played with. While I have fairly high standards what I say to supports are correct.(most of the time :P)
Saying things like, you should smoke gank instead of sitting in the lane and soaking exp and you giving the excuse 'well its hard I would rather try and get away with doing as little as possible'.
I fuck up I make mistakes and I do not always make the correct call but I do not justify doing something stupid like forgetting to grab a TP scroll to help my teammates being dived on because it 'was too much to remember'
Situation awareness. Not everyone has it. Hey, I know most of what a good support is supposed to do in a game, yet I don't do all of them because, well, I fuck up with either timing or taking advantage of the opportunities that present themselves and I seriously doubt that and missing a few of the supports' tasks is what's holding me back from 4k (3925 at the moment...damned schedules don't let me play often).
Seriously Sampdude, you won't find the supports you are looking for until you are 500 mmr higher or something to that effect. You'll find people who know every support task, but you won't find ones who can actually make them ALL in a single game is what I'm saying.
Now, if you get to 4500 or so, good luck finding a support. I've heard the 4.4k-4.9k range is almost devoid of support players :)
well if both teams dont have support players that is balanced :)
again did people actually read the list? The majority of these things are pretty basic like buying and using a smoke.......nowhere did it say you must you smoke when your opponent is at X location at Y time. This is like saying buying and using hand of midas is a advance tactic..... Things like knowing when to buy midas on luna, when to buy helm of the dominator and when to buy drums those are a bit more advanced......
You are seriously understimating human incompetence.
The comparison is there to show you, because probably you are not noticing, how you are doing the things you do.
We might discuss if what you say is correct or not, but what I am focusing on here is the way you are doing it.
If you want to promote growth, an improvement not only for your teammates, but overall for your games, you should avoid speaking/flaming the way you yourself are saying you do. Everyone loses control from time to time, but this is rather excessive.
I might understand you get rather pissy when the guy doesn't buy a TP scroll for example, but a kind remind goes a long way compared to a flame. As Zano stated people tend to forget because the support has a lot of tasks and not everyone might be good at doing them all with the same progress time.
Some people need to do the same thing 5000 times to learn it, some need 10. It's just the way the human is.
Again, that being said, it's not probably what you say, it's the way you do it, then you make a post and complain again the same way.
Why all the rage dude? The questions are still there:
At the end of the day, what have you gained and what have you accomplished?
On an additional note, just look at the topic you've made. You've been complaining so much about other people's topics, yet you do something similar, construct your topic, put up you idea in a much more elaborate way, this brings nothing.
It's good that we managed to discuss somehow
if you wan to "make an advise thread" then do it right. You know how to right guide.
This is a just argument / QQ bait.
The people who cant take harsh criticism are not the ones I want to focus on anyway. There was no complex theory that needed to be elaborated on it was mostly a public service announcement and the people who find it offensive are the ones who needed to hear it the most.
Soultrap is the mvp here. Period.
no matter what way you put it, the thread was rather useless. I seem to lack the constructiveness from your first post.
Have it your way :)
So you believe that there are no people who believe that their job as support is just to buy wards? It seems pretty egotistical that unless a thread pertains to you the thread becomes useless. You can argue that my method of relaying the information might not be the best way but it does not change the content.
You need to place them too.
Is that your point?
Sampson, i am being really honest here.
You are just embarassing yourself.
Please, take the time to read carefully what I have posted above.
Thank you.
And did you even read my response? I don't smoke gank in pubs because no one knows how to cooridinate and smoke ganking mid or a lane with just you as a support will get you killed. Say you're on lion. Your mid has to be on their mid's ass by the time impale wears off or it's not happening.